if you need people on an online forum to give you a “form check” you haven;t stepoped outside the “beginner” zone yet, no offence.
Some of the responses above are almost illiterate, especially those who pointed you towards reading some fucking articles on back training, give me a break.
HEre’s some useful advice - and I;mn not even looking at your video sicne thats useless. Get some advice from some big guy IN YOUR FUCKING gym who can work with you and help you feel outyour muscles AND who stands out in the gym.
YOu should have a feel for whether the form is working your prime movers or not.
Take-away: Use a form that stresses your chosen muscles the prime movers and allows you to progress load-wise.
And there’s no such thing as “universally perfect form”, especially in back training.
In back training, you’re either contracting your back muscles OR you’re NOT contracting the damn muscles…with or without some leg drive, with or without a “tightly arched back”, or whatever. Most of these are “safety precautions” and have little to do with helping you “perfect your form”.
Its personal…if youf eel yoru back contracting and youre able to add weight AND you don;t get critically injured halfway through.its all good.
You might also want to up your rep range for them… Going for a heavy set of 3 with strict form isn’t very reasonable I don’t think. I would personally stick above 6 if I were you… closer to 10 (though I don’t know your goals).
Also, what tribunaldude said about asking a big guy in your gym would be a good place to start as well
I will give 45 degrees a shot sometime too and see which one I can progress better on and which feels better. Thanks for the suggestion. Are there any specific video’s for it? I’m sure it’s pretty obvious, it’s just that every video I’ve seen has been closer to 90 degrees.
[/quote]
I don’t know of a specific one. You could search for videos of Yates doing rows. He is bent over at a different angle, about 20 degrees off vertical, but the form is essentially the same.
Incidentally, not that one needs to do this, and if doing it it should be done only on the last work set, but a good method is to do as many reps as possible at the 45 degree angle, then go to 20 degrees and get a few more.
Incidentally, the 20 degree row (some call it 70 degrees, but that would be relative to the floor) is, unsurprisingly, called the Yates Row. I’m not aware of any name for the bent row done at 45 degrees except, simply, it being one of the ways to do a bent row.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
And there’s no such thing as “universally perfect form”, especially in back training.
In back training, you’re either contracting your back muscles OR you’re NOT contracting the damn muscles…with or without some leg drive, with or without a “tightly arched back”, or whatever. Most of these are “safety precautions” and have little to do with helping you “perfect your form”.
Its personal…if youf eel yoru back contracting and youre able to add weight AND you don;t get critically injured halfway through.its all good.[/quote]
Yes. But for example I’d consider a Coleman Row (basically like a Yates Row but with highly technically proficient use of further drive) to be an advanced technique. Generally a beginner relying on tons of momentum generated from non-target muscles, or relying on other “cheating” mechanisms, is screwing up the exercise.
After having learned to feel it in the target muscles and really work them, only then can one evaluate whether for example adding leg drive is actually enabling hitting the target muscles more, or is taking away.
Not that you need to be told that, I know – this is intended only to add clarity (hopefully) for any reader that might be unsure on the point.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
if you need people on an online forum to give you a “form check” you haven;t stepoped outside the “beginner” zone yet, no offence.
Some of the responses above are almost illiterate, especially those who pointed you towards reading some fucking articles on back training, give me a break.
HEre’s some useful advice - and I;mn not even looking at your video sicne thats useless. Get some advice from some big guy IN YOUR FUCKING gym who can work with you and help you feel outyour muscles AND who stands out in the gym.
YOu should have a feel for whether the form is working your prime movers or not.
Take-away: Use a form that stresses your chosen muscles the prime movers and allows you to progress load-wise.[/quote]
I workout in my basement, otherwise I would. Since I can’t I thought it would best to ask the big guys here.
[quote]bugeishaAD wrote:
You might also want to up your rep range for them… Going for a heavy set of 3 with strict form isn’t very reasonable I don’t think. I would personally stick above 6 if I were you… closer to 10 (though I don’t know your goals).
Also, what tribunaldude said about asking a big guy in your gym would be a good place to start as well[/quote]
Yea I’m probably going to raise it to 5-6 next week, whatever keeps me progressing.
Go out on the street, find the biggest dude outside (who looks like he lifts) and pay him 20 bucks him to follow you back to your basement so he can softly palm your back muscles for a while. More effective than getting online readouts…
I can understand form assessment in a squat/deadlift since the “shift” in gears and body position readily point out the prime movers (in each phase).
But while training back thickness AND when your back isn;t “lumpy” and “meaty” enough yet for anyone to tell (online) if your back muscles are moving the weight up - the only way to tell for certain (when you don;t yet possess the know-how yourself) is to ask someone around to stand behind you and get up close and personal with your back.
[quote]David1991 wrote:
I workout in my basement, otherwise I would. Since I can’t I thought it would best to ask the big guys here.
[/quote]
And oh yes, I gave juan a nifty little trick to rapidly improve mind-muscle connection with the back muscles (the opening a door trick) in another thread and some characters emailed me saying it helped them out.
Give that a try…
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
And oh yes, I gave juan a nifty little trick to rapidly improve mind-muscle connection with the back muscles (the opening a door trick) in another thread and some characters emailed me saying it helped them out.
Give that a try… [/quote]
I’m not sure what I’ll do for a critique but I’ll do the best I can until I find a big guy
as for this trick, I’ll check it out, what thread is it in? I searched “opening a door” but nothing came up and I don’t know what else to search for lol.
edit: Regarding my form, basically going on what you guys have mentioned, I just glanced over one of the articles posted by CT and I think it’s clear I’m 1.) doing “arm pulling” kind of like you said TribunalDude…basically not contracting the back to lift it up and 2.) possibly shortening the range of motion at times to get the weight up. So i’ll make sure to work on those with the Pendlay Rows.
I guess you are trying to hit your lats/rhomboids etc.
I’ll probably get bum-raped for this, but I really cannot fathom why anyone would use bent-over-anythings when so many upright variations are available. The 45 degree bentover row is an OK compromise but still I don’t get it. Same with bent-over rear delt raises - have you guys never heard of cables or the reverse pec-dec?? Fair enough if your gym doesn’t have these items, but most do.
Not only does your lower back need to support the weight itself, but YOUR weight as well. This means that your lower back is actually recieving the most stress, which seems an odd way to approach things if you want to add thickness and width. Even if wanting to train lower back, there are better options - deadlifts, GMs, hypers…
OK if you have a rock solid lower back, and are able to keep a good arch, then go for it. However, I doubt many people can really push their upper/mid back to the limit whilst holding their lower back in a strict arch.
Drop the damn bentover rows and hit a seated variation, chest supported or not it doesn’t matter. Cable rows, HS rows, chest-supported DB rows. One arm DB rows are good too because although they are bent-over, you can use your contralateral arm for support.
I tend to agree with what you’re saying about bar bentover rows. I’m a real stickler with this exercise, and if you can’t do it with good form and can’t hold and brace the weight at the top, with a controlled lower, I tend to not prescribe it or I tell people to lift lighter and not be a dick by wrecking their back. Nor is this an exercise where I lift heavy compared to what alot of other people lift. I do like it, but am very careful with it.
Still, really big guys who are very strong through the midsection and just hammer this exercise out with quite a bit of movement tend to really enjoy it and don’t get hurt.
I prefer to do T-bar rows with narrow overhand grip to traditional wide grip barbell bent-overs.
[quote]Dave_ wrote:
I guess you are trying to hit your lats/rhomboids etc.
I’ll probably get bum-raped for this, but I really cannot fathom why anyone would use bent-over-anythings when so many upright variations are available. The 45 degree bentover row is an OK compromise but still I don’t get it. Same with bent-over rear delt raises - have you guys never heard of cables or the reverse pec-dec?? Fair enough if your gym doesn’t have these items, but most do.
Not only does your lower back need to support the weight itself, but YOUR weight as well. This means that your lower back is actually recieving the most stress, which seems an odd way to approach things if you want to add thickness and width. Even if wanting to train lower back, there are better options - deadlifts, GMs, hypers…
OK if you have a rock solid lower back, and are able to keep a good arch, then go for it. However, I doubt many people can really push their upper/mid back to the limit whilst holding their lower back in a strict arch.
Drop the damn bentover rows and hit a seated variation, chest supported or not it doesn’t matter. Cable rows, HS rows, chest-supported DB rows. One arm DB rows are good too because although they are bent-over, you can use your contralateral arm for support.[/quote]
I’ve heard CT say the same thing, that he doesn’t like them for bodybuilding purposes because you have to strain your lower back to stay upright. I would think the Pendlay rows do this less because you rest the weight on the floor after each rep but still, I do get what your saying. Like I said I workout in my basement so the cables aren’t an option but chest supported DB rows and 1-arm DB rows are both options that I’ll likely use sometime soon. I don’t want to just ignore advice from others here without giving it a fair shot but I’ll try the chest supported ones soon and see how it goes. I do like 1-arm DB rows a lot, the only down side is it takes twice as long lol.
[quote]Dave_ wrote:
I guess you are trying to hit your lats/rhomboids etc.
I’ll probably get bum-raped for this, but I really cannot fathom why anyone would use bent-over-anythings when so many upright variations are available. The 45 degree bentover row is an OK compromise but still I don’t get it. Same with bent-over rear delt raises - have you guys never heard of cables or the reverse pec-dec?? Fair enough if your gym doesn’t have these items, but most do.
Not only does your lower back need to support the weight itself, but YOUR weight as well. This means that your lower back is actually recieving the most stress, which seems an odd way to approach things if you want to add thickness and width. Even if wanting to train lower back, there are better options - deadlifts, GMs, hypers…
OK if you have a rock solid lower back, and are able to keep a good arch, then go for it. However, I doubt many people can really push their upper/mid back to the limit whilst holding their lower back in a strict arch.
Drop the damn bentover rows and hit a seated variation, chest supported or not it doesn’t matter. Cable rows, HS rows, chest-supported DB rows. One arm DB rows are good too because although they are bent-over, you can use your contralateral arm for support.[/quote]
Sure, it depends on the individual. You’re absolutely right that if the lower back is a limiting factor for doing bent rows at 45 or 90 degrees (whatever the case may be) or alternately that doing rows that way then limits performance in exercises such as the squat or deadlift because of being hard on the back, or causes other back problems, then the heck with that. Your alternates are better for that person.
And it’s not unusual for that to be the case, especially at 90 degrees. I have no accurate ideas on percentages but it seems to me a lot have this problem at that angle; not so many at 45 degrees.
[quote]David1991 wrote:
When I try Pendlay rows I’ll do it with my head against a wall/bar for support, I can feel that take a lot of pressure off the lower back. [/quote]
I used to do that with BB rows, but I stopped as it didn’t feel too safe on my cervical vertibrae. You need to weigh up benefit vs risk with every movement, moreso the questionable ones.
I assume the OP knows how to round his upper back (at the start of the movement) WHILE keeping the lower back tightly arched lol. These photos may create a bit of confusion otherwise.
