BB Bench w/ Shrugged Shoulders

^ we know this… What is being discussed here is the difference between keeping your shoulders back and down and keeping your shoulders back and up

Everyone seems to be taking advice from geared powerlifters, not remembering that they don’t take gear themselves. Benching like a shirted bencher, raw, is silly, as you don’t have the same leverages!

Besides that, people forget to look at their own bodies before taking ‘postural’ advice from technical articles. Most people start with neutral shoulders, or if they come from a desk job where they slouch or use a keyboard a lot they start with sunk shoulders. Doing lots of deadlifting with neutral shoulders will tend to create a raised shouldered posture, deadlifting with sunk shoulders just seems to sink them even more, over time. This is where the shoulder problems start to become an issue:

Powerlifters who’s traps are too dominant need to pull their shoulders back and down!
Desk jobbers who’s traps have postural weakness need to pull their shoulders back and up!

For years as a kid I was listening to to the powerlifters saying back and down back and down, and for years I was slowly creating a shoulder problem because of my already sunken shoulders. Now that I have a true understanding of postural analysis I can quickly pick out that 70% of shoulder problems are due to the traps being under or over engaged. The tops of your scapula should be equally levelled with your C5 vertebra, or sometimes anything from a half inch or 2 inches higher than that, depending on the person. I am sure if you take a good hard look at yourself you can figure out what is best for you.

If in doubt, though, there are less problems associated with back and up, if you are a raw lifter.

I really feel like writing a whole bunch of postural analysis articles, because with the experience I have, and reading people’s posts, it frustrates me that people do not understand the basics of biomechanical and postural analysis.

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
I read recently CT saying that when he benches he keeps his shoulders shrugged and I think Wendler said something about that being the best way to bench press raw.

I decided to try it out a few weeks ago and evrything seems much smoother and tighter. I feel like it allows me to descend the bar a little closer to my shoulders without any discomfort. In those few weeks I have added reps and wieght to my bench aswell.

Does anyone else bench like this? [/quote]

I think I do, it just helps me with the arch and dig my shoulder blades into the bench more.

Uhhh please do write those articles. That would be greatly appreciated

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Everyone seems to be taking advice from geared powerlifters, not remembering that they don’t take gear themselves. Benching like a shirted bencher, raw, is silly, as you don’t have the same leverages!

Besides that, people forget to look at their own bodies before taking ‘postural’ advice from technical articles. Most people start with neutral shoulders, or if they come from a desk job where they slouch or use a keyboard a lot they start with sunk shoulders. Doing lots of deadlifting with neutral shoulders will tend to create a raised shouldered posture, deadlifting with sunk shoulders just seems to sink them even more, over time. This is where the shoulder problems start to become an issue:

Powerlifters who’s traps are too dominant need to pull their shoulders back and down!
Desk jobbers who’s traps have postural weakness need to pull their shoulders back and up!

For years as a kid I was listening to to the powerlifters saying back and down back and down, and for years I was slowly creating a shoulder problem because of my already sunken shoulders. Now that I have a true understanding of postural analysis I can quickly pick out that 70% of shoulder problems are due to the traps being under or over engaged. The tops of your scapula should be equally levelled with your C5 vertebra, or sometimes anything from a half inch or 2 inches higher than that, depending on the person. I am sure if you take a good hard look at yourself you can figure out what is best for you.

If in doubt, though, there are less problems associated with back and up, if you are a raw lifter.

I really feel like writing a whole bunch of postural analysis articles, because with the experience I have, and reading people’s posts, it frustrates me that people do not understand the basics of biomechanical and postural analysis.[/quote]

Awesome to hear advice like this Forevernade. I would love to read articals on the basics of biomechanical and postural analysis. Last thing I need is to damage myself. Mind if i ask what your qualifications are and years in the trade?

Can you or anyone else link me to the articles/comments where both CT and Wendler reccomend this style of benching?

Everything I have ever read from Wendler has suggested shoulders pulled back and down.

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/blood_and_chalk_vol_9_jim_wendler_talks_big_weights

Wendler talks about the differences between shirted bench and raw bench in this one.

Hes says raw bench the bar is lowered higher, and gives you an excuse to do a lot of extra upper back and trap work.

but, I dont think he specifically says to shrug your shoulders.

Have read that article before, he still recommends back and down raw or not.

Having been an olympic lifter as a kid, is it possible Wendler was referring to the military press? Old timers used to recommend shrugging at the start to get the bar moving. Just saying…

[quote]str1ation wrote:
Have read that article before, he still recommends back and down raw or not.[/quote]

Ya, like I said in the OP, I thought he said to shrug your shoulders, I mistook what he said in the article for that. CT commented in the livespill for that article about how what wendler said made him feel good about his shrugging of the shoulders when he benches (something to that effect) so thats where I must have mistook Wendler giving the same advice.

Anyway, for me shrugging my shoulders for bench has been helpful. Wendler not saying to do it really doesnt matter to me.

Thanks for clarifying for me and everyone that he did not give that advice though

I tried the shrugged shoulders for the first time this morning and I’m not sure how I feel about it yet. My shoulder was sore from the prior day and I went through 12 sets of bench presses just fine.

The other thing that has helped me even better than Dave Tate’s 6-Week Cure article is Dave’s “So You Think You Can Bench” video on YouTube. It’s a 7-part video and I think it’s even better than his article which is already very good.

I hope people aren’t shrugging their should as high as they can. I think it’s probably best to slightly shrug them, DEFINITELY not all the way. That would look really awkward benching…

[quote]TD54 wrote:
I hope people aren’t shrugging their should as high as they can. I think it’s probably best to slightly shrug them, DEFINITELY not all the way. That would look really awkward benching…[/quote]

This is T-Nation… of course they are doing that.

There are 20 guys in gyms all around the world right now bench pressing with their shoulders touching their ears.

^I shrug them all the way and keep them as tight as I can. I dont care how awkward it looks.

[quote]canada wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
I read recently CT saying that when he benches he keeps his shoulders shrugged and I think Wendler said something about that being the best way to bench press raw.

I decided to try it out a few weeks ago and evrything seems much smoother and tighter. I feel like it allows me to descend the bar a little closer to my shoulders without any discomfort. In those few weeks I have added reps and wieght to my bench aswell.

Does anyone else bench like this? [/quote]

I do, it really seems to help prevent any recurring right shoulder problems. I believe rear delt raises, y raises and even shrugs helped my right shoulder immensely, pain free now.
[/quote]
What sort of reps/sets was you doing with rear delt raises, y raises and shrugs.

I’d quite like a pain free right shoulder!

[quote]forevernade wrote:
Everyone seems to be taking advice from geared powerlifters, not remembering that they don’t take gear themselves. Benching like a shirted bencher, raw, is silly, as you don’t have the same leverages!

Besides that, people forget to look at their own bodies before taking ‘postural’ advice from technical articles. Most people start with neutral shoulders, or if they come from a desk job where they slouch or use a keyboard a lot they start with sunk shoulders. Doing lots of deadlifting with neutral shoulders will tend to create a raised shouldered posture, deadlifting with sunk shoulders just seems to sink them even more, over time. This is where the shoulder problems start to become an issue:

Powerlifters who’s traps are too dominant need to pull their shoulders back and down!
Desk jobbers who’s traps have postural weakness need to pull their shoulders back and up!

For years as a kid I was listening to to the powerlifters saying back and down back and down, and for years I was slowly creating a shoulder problem because of my already sunken shoulders. Now that I have a true understanding of postural analysis I can quickly pick out that 70% of shoulder problems are due to the traps being under or over engaged. The tops of your scapula should be equally levelled with your C5 vertebra, or sometimes anything from a half inch or 2 inches higher than that, depending on the person. I am sure if you take a good hard look at yourself you can figure out what is best for you.

If in doubt, though, there are less problems associated with back and up, if you are a raw lifter.

I really feel like writing a whole bunch of postural analysis articles, because with the experience I have, and reading people’s posts, it frustrates me that people do not understand the basics of biomechanical and postural analysis.[/quote]
By sunk shoulders do you mean rounded shoulders?

I certainly seem to have an issue with that, as well as my scapula… Benching for me is hell and if I push myself I get injured these days.

I understand it could be form which is why your post intrigues me because I also know for sure, that it is postural. Learning that there is form for X postural problem is brilliant.

So for rounded shoulders am I retracting back and up or back and down?

I have competed as a master’s bench-only lifter since 2007. My best bench in competition, with a single-ply shirt is 402. Thats not great. But I am a student of the game and have read every bench press article I can find and have spoken with great lifters about this movement. I will probably get grilled for this but here goes…

This shrugging idea while benching is wrong. It’s poor technique not only from the standpoint of increasing range of motion and therefore lifting less…but it also puts the shoulder in a position where injury is more likely. No one, and I mean no one with real expertise recommends this. Its not a new discovery. Its just incorrect form.

As far as the poster trying something new and sticking with it despite being shown to be wrong about an article. Fine. Go for it. But as its been pointed out, beginners will be using this poor technique all over the country.

If you’re tempted to try this shrugging thing, read Westside articles, Elitefts articles, go to any of the powerlifting forums, call someone who will give it to you straight. Hurting a shoulder can mean lots of down time. Benching correctly protects lifters. No disrespect to Maiden but this is exactly like recommending a rounded back on deadlifting or knees together on the squat. No good.

[quote]Island Strength wrote:

This shrugging idea while benching is wrong. It’s poor technique not only from the standpoint of increasing range of motion and therefore lifting less…but it also puts the shoulder in a position where injury is more likely. No one, and I mean no one with real expertise recommends this. Its not a new discovery. Its just incorrect form.
[/quote]

CT doesnt have real expertise? I would not be doing benching like this if I didnt feel it worked better for me. I am not advocating that everyone bench like this, I am just saying I have found it works for me and was wondering if it works for anyone else. That was the whole reason for my initial post.

I initially stated that I thought Wendler said something about shrugging your shoulders while benching. He didnt. CT does. Doesnt matter anyway whether or not either of them says to do it. I did not start benching this way solely on the thought Wendler said to do so, I am doing it because it works…for me.

I dont think it is incorrect form. I feel it helps me lower that bar a little higher on my chest and press more from my traps. I am not a shirted bencher, most people that bodybuild are not shirted benchers, so benching with a shirted bench technique doesn’t work well for me, and possibly doesnt work well for other people that bench for bodybuilding purposes.

For those who asked, I am a personal trainer, by qualification, but I have years of study in human movement and biomedicine, and years of experience in powerlifting and olympiclifting. I have worked with clients with shoulder, knee and hip problems and I am known at my gym as ‘the rehab guy’ even though I am not a physiotherapist (and we have one at our gym). I talk from experience. I talk from applying my studies to people with real problems.

By sunk shoulders, I do not mean rounded, they are two different problems. Sunk shoulders mean the scapula is not elevated enough. Rounded means internal rotation of the arms and or shoulders. I am writing an article I will post in the rehab forum, or if I can post it as a T-Nation article I would like to do that. I don’t know if the big boys up back would want an article from simple old me.

http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Scapula.html if you look at this it will tell you there are only 6 possible directional changes to the scapula, when really there are in fact 10 (they miss horizontal medial and lateral rotation, and sagittal elevation and depression). People oversimplify the scapula and this causes problems people have no idea about. A doctor might say there is this or that wrong with the shoulder, but when they are put under the knife they deal with the primary problem, not the primary cause. If they had dealt with the cause, the problem may have settled down.

There are various ways to activate the traps, and I hope I don’t make this seem too complicated:
Shrug straight upward. This uses the upper portion of the traps.
Shrug so that you pull your shoulders into your neck (not upward). This uses a different portion of the traps, and with different accessory muscles.
Get someone to hold your shoulders, and shrug so that the inferior angle of the scapula medially rotates, but your shoulders stay where they are. Your traps should be activated, but your scapula has totally elevated.

Retract your scapula then shrug up with equal force as if you are making your shoulders go diagonally up and behind you. In this position your scapula is not as elevated as when you shrugged straight upward, but neither are you able to shrug it any higher because of the rhomboid activation. In this position you are most stable, but your shoulders are not ‘as high as they can be’. This is the shoulder position that I teach for bench pressing.
You may find that this is a position different to that if you had shrugged first (to your ears), then retracted.

[quote]forevernade wrote:

http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Scapula.html if you look at this it will tell you there are only 6 possible directional changes to the scapula, when really there are in fact 10 (they miss horizontal medial and lateral rotation, and sagittal elevation and depression). People oversimplify the scapula and this causes problems people have no idea about. A doctor might say there is this or that wrong with the shoulder, but when they are put under the knife they deal with the primary problem, not the primary cause. If they had dealt with the cause, the problem may have settled down.
[/quote]
What you say about people dealing with the primary problem and not the cause, I am a big believer in dealing with the cause and not the problem.
It is a reason I am interested in good diet and exercise in the first place - for health reasons but that’s another matter entirely.

I have shoulder issues, and for a long time I thought that was my only problem. I now know however, that I have a winged scapula and I’m not sure if it is just one side that is the problem or both. I’m pretty sure the scap problem is the cause of my shoulder issues.

As an example, when I retract my scapula one side seems overly tight or at least it is tighter than the other one. On the other hand when I protract my scapula the left side (right side is tighter) seems to come right out of my back.

Also as part of this example, I will say if I grab something and try to exert a pulling force almost as though I am trying to rip it, my right scap/lat has no problem going tense, you know actually feeling like the muscle is there / working. The left scap/lat has no tension at all and feels like it just doesn’t work.

I have no way near your knowledge or experience, all I have is a good head on my shoulders at least enough to know my problem lies deeper than the primary problem.
I was planning on trying to strengthen my rhomboids and lats as well as correcting any bad form on lifts such as bench press.

If you have any idea what issue I may have it would be the biggest help if you could offer your advice.

Also if you look in my avatar, you can see one shoulder seems to be more elevated than the other, I’ve no idea if this is another symptom of the issues I’m facing :confused: