T Nation

'Bad Religion'

Thought this was interesting being the Fourth of July.

Wow, A Catholic talkin’ about OTHER Christian Heretics…:wink:
Interesting, however IF there is story in all of Scripture that unfortunately may
be used against Christians one day, is the most fantastical of all, and for the last year or so,
I have been trying to dis-prove it BECAUSE it sounded too “weird”, too “out there”, YET every time
I’ve tried to dis-prove it, I ran into a brick wall every…single…time.
It’s a story Preachers stay away from generally, because it will definitely ‘weird out’ the
Church goers, and if EVER Syrupy Sweet ‘Everyone goes to Heaven’ preacher Joel Osteen makes it a subject
matter in one of his sermons, he will lose about half his congregation the following week, guaranteed,
however it’s IN the Bible and cannot be glossed over or denied.
Clue: It’s a story most of the earliest Church Leaders confirmed, and believed, it’s a story confirmed
in DETAIL when the oldest manuscripts ever discovered were unearthed (The Dead Sea Scrolls), giving weight
to the already very strong evidence within Scripture itself.
Anybody know what the story is yet?..get ready for a mind bender if you don’t.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Wow, A Catholic talkin’ about OTHER Christian Heretics…:wink:
Interesting, however IF there is story in all of Scripture that unfortunately may
be used against Christians one day, is the most fantastical of all, and for the last year or so,
I have been trying to dis-prove it BECAUSE it sounded too “weird”, too “out there”, YET every time
I’ve tried to dis-prove it, I ran into a brick wall every…single…time.
It’s a story Preachers stay away from generally, because it will definitely ‘weird out’ the
Church goers, and if EVER Syrupy Sweet ‘Everyone goes to Heaven’ preacher Joel Osteen makes it a subject
matter in one of his sermons, he will lose about half his congregation the following week, guaranteed,
however it’s IN the Bible and cannot be glossed over or denied.
Clue: It’s a story most of the earliest Church Leaders confirmed, and believed, it’s a story confirmed
in DETAIL when the oldest manuscripts ever discovered were unearthed (The Dead Sea Scrolls), giving weight
to the already very strong evidence within Scripture itself.
Anybody know what the story is yet?..get ready for a mind bender if you don’t. [/quote]
Guess the story? I can barely stand to read your post!

‘Christians’ and preachers gloss over a lot of the Bible. What are you on about?

Wanna know a good one to talk to your preacher about? How about how Jesus freed us from tithing?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
How about how Jesus freed us from tithing? [/quote]

Lawl. I’ve still yet to see anyone prove this.

[quote]Karado wrote:
Wow, A Catholic talkin’ about OTHER Christian Heretics…;)[/quote]

Yes, usually the orthodox are in a position to talk about those whom are heterodoxy in certain matters.

[quote]
Interesting, however IF there is story in all of Scripture that unfortunately may
be used against Christians one day, is the most fantastical of all, and for the last year or so,
I have been trying to dis-prove it BECAUSE it sounded too “weird”, too “out there”, YET every time
I’ve tried to dis-prove it, I ran into a brick wall every…single…time.
It’s a story Preachers stay away from generally, because it will definitely ‘weird out’ the
Church goers, and if EVER Syrupy Sweet ‘Everyone goes to Heaven’ preacher Joel Osteen makes it a subject
matter in one of his sermons, he will lose about half his congregation the following week, guaranteed,
however it’s IN the Bible and cannot be glossed over or denied.
Clue: It’s a story most of the earliest Church Leaders confirmed, and believed, it’s a story confirmed
in DETAIL when the oldest manuscripts ever discovered were unearthed (The Dead Sea Scrolls), giving weight
to the already very strong evidence within Scripture itself.
Anybody know what the story is yet?..get ready for a mind bender if you don’t. [/quote]

Please tell us.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
How about how Jesus freed us from tithing? [/quote]

Lawl. I’ve still yet to see anyone prove this.[/quote]
Matthew 17:24-27 God provided His own tithe
Luke 16:16 Tithing was required by Levitical Law

Jesus did not take up one single collection when he taught. He did not even tell us to go to church. He did tell us to give to the poor, not to the church.

The Lord doesn’t need your money. He wants us to love and show kindness to each other.

Of course, two thousand years worth of organized con-artistry says I’m wrong, and I’m sure you’ll quote a bunch of sources from after the Gospel of John to prove me wrong.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:<<< I’m sure you’ll quote a bunch of sources from after the Gospel of John to prove me wrong.[/quote]Actually, depending on which dating one accepts, the gospel of John was written after most at earliest, or all of the epistles except maybe his own at latest. Edited for clarity.

What I meant was after Jesus left, not book dates. The apostles rarely knew what Jesus was talking about unless he explained it to them in detail, therefore I lend little credence to their interpretations.

Basically, if Jesus didn’t say it, I’m really not interested. I know that rubs some people the wrong way, but most of the contradictions in the Bible are in the books after John’s account of the Gospel.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Matthew 17:24-27 God provided His own tithe[/quote]

Yes. And he praised the old lady that gave two coins. God loves a happy giver.

Does this mean it is not required of us?

Really?

“the Twelve were with him [Jesus], and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Mag’dalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Jo-an’na, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.” - Luke 8:1-3

Yes, Jesus just had a really fat bank account that he lived off for three years.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
What I meant was after Jesus left, not book dates. The apostles rarely knew what Jesus was talking about unless he explained it to them in detail, therefore I lend little credence to their interpretations.

Basically, if Jesus didn’t say it, I’m really not interested. I know that rubs some people the wrong way, but most of the contradictions in the Bible are in the books after John’s account of the Gospel.[/quote]

I see, so God gave you the charism of infallibility. See Tirib, this is a logical conclusion of denying that the Church is the channel of salvation. Round of applause to Luther, he was so obedient and an example to our youth!

http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/1461/10_Things_You_Should_Know_About_the_American_Founding.aspx

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Matthew 17:24-27 God provided His own tithe[/quote]

Yes. And he praised the old lady that gave two coins. God loves a happy giver.[/quote]
He praised her generous spirit by saying that she gave more in those two coins than the wealthy who gave large sums. Not necessarily that she gave to the church

Does this mean it is not required of us?[/quote]
It says “The Law and the Prophets were until John”. So the requirements of the old law were null and void.

Really?

“the Twelve were with him [Jesus], and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Mag’dalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Jo-an’na, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.” - Luke 8:1-3

Yes, Jesus just had a really fat bank account that he lived off for three years.[/quote]
My Bibles say “ministered unto him of their substance” (KJV) and “who were supporting them from their possessions” (HCSB)

That was not a tithe, that was making sure they had food, water, clothes, and shelter. Same with the tax collector Zaccheus. Jesus ate at his house (not a thithe) and Zaccheus, repentant, vowed to give half of what he had to the poor and to pay back any extortion four-fold to the people he extorted.

“Jesus had a really fat bank account?”. You need to take a good hard look at your faith.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
What I meant was after Jesus left, not book dates. The apostles rarely knew what Jesus was talking about unless he explained it to them in detail, therefore I lend little credence to their interpretations.

Basically, if Jesus didn’t say it, I’m really not interested. I know that rubs some people the wrong way, but most of the contradictions in the Bible are in the books after John’s account of the Gospel.[/quote]

I see, so God gave you the charism of infallibility.[/quote]
Me? No. Jesus? Yes. Peter? Paul? Simon? I don’t know for sure, so I follow Jesus. Can’t go wrong that way.

John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me

Now you give me a direct quote that proves that the church is the way to the Father.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
It says “The Law and the Prophets were until John”. So the requirements of the old law were null and void.[/quote]

Actually, Jesus said that The Law and the Prophets stay forever, Matthew 5:18. But, you also forget six chapter back to Luke 10:7, the worker is worth his wage. Those spreading the good news are definitely worth their wage. Further, the old law of tithing required 10%, it was a type for providing for the Church. We are required to give more than 10%, so you’re right, we’re not required to give 10%…we have to give more than 10%, 10% is like the minimum you can get by on. However, just as Christ did, we don’t give the minimum we can get by on, we look at what the maximum we can give and then we give it joyfully. Since of course, God loves a cheerful giver. “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” - 2 Cor 9:7.

[quote]
My Bibles say “ministered unto him of their substance” (KJV) and “who were supporting them from their possessions” (HCSB)[/quote]

Same thing, people provided for his needs. That’s what tithes are, they support the body of Christ. Just like those lovely ladies.

What do you think a tithe is?

Again, what do you think that was? How do you think the Levites ate?? By people bringing sacrifices to the Levites, they’d sacrifice it then eat it.

Yes, it was satire. There were not banks. I think you need to actually learn how to interpret scripture instead of making stuff up to make yourself feel good about not supporting the Church as you should.

You keep leaving out vital parts of the Scriptures you quote. Matthew 5:18, Jesus said “I did not come to destroy, but fulfill

So how much is a tithe supposed to be, and to whom should it be paid? The Old Testament has two different requirements, and the New Testament has several.

I’ll go with what Jesus said “sell that thou hast, and give to the poor

Well, at least ONE inquiring reader wants to know, lol.
The Genesis 6 Story of the Horny Fallen Angels mating with Human Women, extrapolated in detail
in the Book Of Enoch (Dead Sea Scrolls).
The ‘Offspring’ of the Fallen Angel/Human relationship were known as the “Nephilim” in Gen. 6.

You see, THIS is why the Flood Happened…genetic corruption, “All Flesh” was corrupted,
the offspring were the Mighty Men of “Renown”…Dominant Giants, some with Six Fingers and Six Toes,
(2nd Sam 21:20)…Funny that many Ancient Sculptures depict Six Fingered/Toed Statues to these Nephilim,
these “Demi-Gods” that many now believe WERE Men Like the Mighty “Zeus”, and other legends

ALSO concurring from the Bible that these beings were half Celestial, recorded in NON-Biblical writings
as well.
God was to ‘reboot’ Humanity wiping all this Genetic mess, HOWEVER Gen 6. sez the “Nephilim”
were also on the Earth after the Flood…nevertheless SOME “Nephilim” survived anyway.

Apparently the secular world sees the God of the O.T. as “mean”, and Heartless, HOWEVER when one
thinks of ANOTHER story in the O.T. where God commands Joshua to go a Village and even Kill the INFANTS,
well now…before one gets all on the ‘Save The Babies’ bandwagon here, when one learns that the mutants
in that particular village were related to the UNREDEEMABLE Nephilim, one who is half-way learned in all this sees the Big Picture in all this…those A-Holes in that village wern’t even fully human in the first place.

So Yep, you may predictably ‘shoot the messenger’ now :0, I couldn’t make this shit up if I tried.
That’s not gonna stop the fact this Angel Incursion happened according to Scripture.
What’s happening in the Ancient World is happening again, maybe Centaurs and Satyrs will be created
in Labs again…Ever notice the Sphinx in Egypt is a hybrid as well, (rapping on your forehead now…Hello?)

how about Mermaids?..possible?? Who knows, ever see the Genetic Human Ear on a Mouse picture online?
Thats just the beginning, look at Monsanto’s Genetic tampering with Plants…starting to see it now?
How about Hollywood’s movies preparing us for this with Movies like “Splice” for example.
It’s all about the corruption of the Natural…THAT’S what pisses off the ‘Man Upstairs’.

“They mixed species with one another in order to provoke the Lord”
Book Of Jasher, Chapter 4…The Book of Jasher ITSELF is mentioned in Joshua, and 2nd Samuel.

Noah was chosen to continue the species because he was “perfect in his generations”. Early Biblical scholars took that to mean that his family was the only purely human family left on Earth.

The inhabitants of the promised land weren’t even fully wiped out after the Israelites took over. I don’t remember which tribes failed in that duty, but I remember that they were punished for it.

EDIT: I was dumbfounded when I actually took the time to read the entire Old Testament instead of just listening to the bits and pieces they teach in church.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
You keep leaving out vital parts of the Scriptures you quote. Matthew 5:18, Jesus said “I did not come to destroy, but fulfill
[/quote]

So, the law and prophets were not destroyed. They still exist. Glad we concur.

Tithe = 10 percent.

Have you done this?

[quote]Karado wrote:
Well, at least ONE inquiring reader wants to know, lol.
The Genesis 6 Story of the Horny Fallen Angels mating with Human Women, extrapolated in detail
in the Book Of Enoch (Dead Sea Scrolls).
The ‘Offspring’ of the Fallen Angel/Human relationship were known as the “Nephilim” in Gen. 6.

You see, THIS is why the Flood Happened…genetic corruption, “All Flesh” was corrupted,
the offspring were the Mighty Men of “Renown”…Dominant Giants, some with Six Fingers and Six Toes,
(2nd Sam 21:20)…Funny that many Ancient Sculptures depict Six Fingered/Toed Statues to these Nephilim,
these “Demi-Gods” that many now believe WERE Men Like the Mighty “Zeus”, and other legends

ALSO concurring from the Bible that these beings were half Celestial, recorded in NON-Biblical writings
as well.
God was to ‘reboot’ Humanity wiping all this Genetic mess, HOWEVER Gen 6. sez the “Nephilim”
were also on the Earth after the Flood…nevertheless SOME “Nephilim” survived anyway.

Apparently the secular world sees the God of the O.T. as “mean”, and Heartless, HOWEVER when one
thinks of ANOTHER story in the O.T. where God commands Joshua to go a Village and even Kill the INFANTS,
well now…before one gets all on the ‘Save The Babies’ bandwagon here, when one learns that the mutants
in that particular village were related to the UNREDEEMABLE Nephilim, one who is half-way learned in all this sees the Big Picture in all this…those A-Holes in that village wern’t even fully human in the first place.

So Yep, you may predictably ‘shoot the messenger’ now :0, I couldn’t make this shit up if I tried.
That’s not gonna stop the fact this Angel Incursion happened according to Scripture.
What’s happening in the Ancient World is happening again, maybe Centaurs and Satyrs will be created
in Labs again…Ever notice the Sphinx in Egypt is a hybrid as well, (rapping on your forehead now…Hello?)

how about Mermaids?..possible?? Who knows, ever see the Genetic Human Ear on a Mouse picture online?
Thats just the beginning, look at Monsanto’s Genetic tampering with Plants…starting to see it now?
How about Hollywood’s movies preparing us for this with Movies like “Splice” for example.
It’s all about the corruption of the Natural…THAT’S what pisses off the ‘Man Upstairs’.

“They mixed species with one another in order to provoke the Lord”
Book Of Jasher, Chapter 4…The Book of Jasher ITSELF is mentioned in Joshua, and 2nd Samuel.[/quote]

Blaspheme.