T Nation

Bad Recovery: PCTx2 or TRT


#1

I am a 50 y/o very experienced lifter and former AAS user (going back to the 80s). My natty T levels ranged from low 400s to 660 (as of December 2015).

I ran a 10 week cycle of SARMs this spring (Osatarine and Rad140) at low doses compared to most (12.5 mg and 5 mg respectively).

I had great gains but it crashed my T levels to < 100 and my HDL to 35 (down from 97). FSH and LH were in the very low normal range

I ran a 3.5 week Nolvadex PCT (obtained from my SARMs source) and felt great. Waited another month and got bloods.

Bloods came back and as you can see below my T and HDL barely moved:

New bloods are as follows:
HDL 39
total Cholesterol 124
LDL 77
Total testosterone- 179
Free Testosterone 56 (35-155 ref)
FSH 1.9 (1.6-8)
LH (2.1 (1.9 -9.3)
Estrogen 128 (60-190)

I started another SERM stack (Clomid and Nolva) but quit after a week due to the bad sides from the Clomid (I recently saw the posts here about this and would never use Clomid again)

Fortunately, a doc buddy of mine prescribed HCG and Aromidex as well as AndroGel (his advice was F-IT, just go on TRT since I had Low T symptoms when my T-levels were “normal” for my age"

I just read KSman’s HTPA restart protocol (thank you brother for all your research and advice here) and was thinking of giving that a try.

My biggest concern is this: I am prone to anxiety. I spent the last week coming off the Serms fighting this and finally feel ok. I’m deeply afraid that if I try anything - Restsrt protocol or TRT, and need to come off / or keep tweaking doses, It’s going to wreak havoc with my mind. My Doc buddy said that the HCG (and the Test) will help me feel better regardless.

So, should I let things ride and see if I recover naturally over time, try the restart, or, as my doc advised, do the full HCG,Androgel and Aromidex as he prescribed and see how I feel.

Thanks!


#2

total Cholesterol 124: This is pathologically low. <160 is associated with increased all-cause mortality. Cholesterol is needed for structure of cells. Cholesterol is the foundation for production of:

  • sex hormones
  • pregnenolone
  • DHEA
  • cortisol
  • Vit-D3
  • and others

Make diet changes to increase cholesterol if possible. Avoid very low fat diets. Do not neglect EFA’s.

You have secondary and a restart makes sense.
But at age 50, TRT also makes sense too.

E2=128 with FT=56 suggests that you are strongly estrogen dominant. This may be from effects of gear on your liver. Post labs for AST/ALT. You must be using anastrozole in whatever you do and probably past PCT.

Please post more lab results with ranges. What you posted looks like tunnel vision.

Do check hormones on SERMs for LH/FSH, E2, TT, FT

See these stickies:

  • advice for new guys
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections

#3

Hi. Bloods are below and as you can see everything is within normal ranges. My Ast and Alt were 40 and 34 (with an upper limit of 40). FYIW - ive had liver enzymes in the mid-20s for the past 10 years but this cycle bumped those up 50% - although keeping within normal values.

I did bloods a month after SERMs - on which I ran Nolvadex. These were from an online company so it could’ve been bunk.

My doc told me to keep 500 cc hCG /.5 Arimidex EOD and continue taking two pumps of testosterone daily – and then he would retest blood is in 4 to 6 weeks and then make a decision.

A few points regarding this protocol:

  1. My goal would be to come off everything assuming I can keep my natty T level back to over 500. Would taking a few pumps of Androgel along with the HCG make that harder? My doc told me that my LH will already be suppressed by the HCG so it won’t matter - then, I could either stay on TRT or figure out another option (Likely a Serm).

  2. I worry about E2 going too low on .5 EOD , as I am prone to anxiety and don’t want to deal with low E sides- to which my doc told me to to shut the F- up (he’s a good friend of mine) and follow the protocol and take an F-ing Klonopin if I can’t sleep :slight_smile:

  3. I inquired about cycling HCG to avoid sensitivity - he said it’s possible - but you come off for a few weeks every few months (assuming I stay on TRT). I read somewhere that you can do 1-2 weeks on, 1-2 weeks off. Doc said no.

  4. Clomid vs Nolvadex for LH. Doc and many others say Clomid is a better LH agonist. I hate the shit - gave me bad anxiety when I was trying it but when I ran Nolvadex during pct at 20mg/day for a week, then 15and 10 for the following 2 weeks it barely moved my T level (unless they went up and then crashed again during the month after when bloods were drawn).

Any thoughts on the above - particularly #1.

Bloods are below:

Glucose 97 (65-99 mg/dl)
Sodium 139 (135-145)
potassium 4.6 (3.5-5.3
chloride 4.6 (3.5 -5.3)
Co2 31 (20-31)
Urea Nitrogen 24 (7-25)
Creatine 1.27 (0.6-1,35)

WBC 3.9 (3.8-10)
RBC 5 (4.2 -5.8)
Hemoglobin 15.2 (13.2-17 )
Hematocrit 44.3 (38-50%)
Mcv 87 (80-100 FL)
MCHC 34.3 (32-36 g/dl)
RDW 14.1 (-15%)
Platlet Count 244 (140-400 thous/mcl)
MPV 8.2 (7.5-11.5 FL)
Total Neutrophils 50.9 (38-90%)
Total Lymphocytes 37.4 (15-49%)
Monocyte 10.1 (0-13%
Eosinophils 1.2 (0-8%)
Neutrophils absolute 1981 (1500-7800)
Lymphocytes absolute 1459 (850-3900)
monocytes absolute 394 (290-950)
eosinophils absolute 47 (15-500)

FSH 1.9 (1.6-8)
LH 2.1 (1.5-9.3)
Prolactin 4.0 (2.0-18)
PSA 0.6 (<4.0)
Total Testosterone 170 (250-1100ng/dl)
Free Testosterone 55 (35-155 pg/ml)
Estrogen Toal 128 (60-190) pg/ml