Bad Ideas

Bigger Stronger Leaner
609

Sento,
Once again, I need to tap into your RMA knowledge. Yesterday, I got asked about this gentleman because one of our allies is considering hiring him to train some of their SF units. Maybe, I should know who he is, but, I dont. Just a brief look at the article and his website leaves me with a feeling of rehashed Kali/ Silat. However, I tend to be cynical of anyone on the cover of Black Belt Magazine, until proven otherwise. Anyway, I would appreciate any input.

Michael Janich: Martial Blade Concepts

610

Hi Idaho,

I don’t have any direct experience training with Janich, but from watching his knife stuff here are my impressions/evaluations:

  1. Yeah, pretty much Fillipino (Kali, Arnis, Doce Pares, etc…) based stuff

  2. Too much precision and line recognition requirement and not enough margin for error to trust your life with unless you’ve got 40 years to train it or naturally lightning quick reflexes (talent and training can make lots of stuff work that won’t work for the majority). If looking to teach it to a group of individuals that needs a quickly absorbable, effective, relatively easily learned and reproduced under stress blade fighting system though, then this would not be what I would recommend or choose.

  3. The only caveat to that is that as SF guys they may be more heavily armored than the average civilian or LEO, which could mitigate some of the potential liabilities and pitfalls in the system. Still though, unless you are in a suit of plate armor there are vitals targets that can be accessed and this system just doesn’t do a great job of keeping you from getting stabbed/cut on them.

  4. Everything in the sample video was an example of what GM Rich Ryan calls “Cut and Stay” tactics (essentially standing in the “kill zone” and attempting to block and counter), which to be honest is the most difficult, training and/or talent dependent blade on blade strategy and the last one that should be taught to average people (not the go to like Janich and many other knife combat people teach).

To be honest, I would tell your friend to forget about Janich and hire Richard Ryan. He is the best blade guy out there, has lots of experience training military and law enforcement personnel, and his stuff is extremely practical and effective.

611

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi Idaho,

I don’t have any direct experience training with Janich, but from watching his knife stuff here are my impressions/evaluations:

  1. Yeah, pretty much Fillipino (Kali, Arnis, Doce Pares, etc…) based stuff

  2. Too much precision and line recognition requirement and not enough margin for error to trust your life with unless you’ve got 40 years to train it or naturally lightning quick reflexes (talent and training can make lots of stuff work that won’t work for the majority). If looking to teach it to a group of individuals that needs a quickly absorbable, effective, relatively easily learned and reproduced under stress blade fighting system though, then this would not be what I would recommend or choose.

  3. The only caveat to that is that as SF guys they may be more heavily armored than the average civilian or LEO, which could mitigate some of the potential liabilities and pitfalls in the system. Still though, unless you are in a suit of plate armor there are vitals targets that can be accessed and this system just doesn’t do a great job of keeping you from getting stabbed/cut on them.

  4. Everything in the sample video was an example of what GM Rich Ryan calls “Cut and Stay” tactics (essentially standing in the “kill zone” and attempting to block and counter), which to be honest is the most difficult, training and/or talent dependent blade on blade strategy and the last one that should be taught to average people (not the go to like Janich and many other knife combat people teach).

To be honest, I would tell your friend to forget about Janich and hire Richard Ryan. He is the best blade guy out there, has lots of experience training military and law enforcement personnel, and his stuff is extremely practical and effective.[/quote]

Sento,

     Thank you very much and I totally agree with your assessment.As someone who has actually trained in Kali, I know that most of the techniques are simply not based on reality. I accept that, because the art really does (IMHO) create better weapon awareness and trains the mental aspect of not freezing up when encountering a blade. I use the Katas for more of a stress reducer than actual "fighting". (Probably pissed off a bunch of Kali people, but, fighting is done with firearms/heavy weapons in real life, just my opinion).

As a side note, having been exposed to more NATO troops over the last 15 months, it is simply amazing to me how the concept of using a knife in combat is so prevalent. You would think they grew up watching Braveheart all day.They would be much better off spending their training funds on CQB instructors and renting time on the range and kill houses. I am no rookie in this buisness, and yes, I carry a blade on my armor.But if you have spent enough time in Helios, MRAPS, armored vehicles, you know that harness releases are not always a 100%, if that vehicle is blown over or amubushed, you need some way to cut it off and get the hell out.I use mine more to cut of the heavy plastic wrapping around a pallet of bottled water than anything else…LOL

I can understand the need for a knife for self defense in an urban setting, especially in strict firearms states, usually even those states will allow a three inch blade. Anyway, got off subject. As always, I appreciate your advise. Be safe.

612

Maybe has something to do with the UK’s strict gun control laws and thus their focus is more on edged or impact weapons and somehow that spilled over to the NATO troop training? Or like you said, perhaps the troops focus on edged weapons stuff because they frequently have to operate in areas where firearms are prohibited? Just speculating.

The thing about Fillipino blade systems like Kali is that, as I mentioned, those cultures are “blade cultures”. It’s not uncommon to see people walking down the street with two machetes slung on their shoulders, and many people grow up using and training with blades from childhood. So, yeah, if you literally grow up with blades in your hands and train the crap out of stuff like Kali, then sure, you are probably going to be more than a match for the average Joe who picks up a knife in anger or tries to rob you with one.

Again though, for the average person wanting effective edged weapon skills though, there are way too many intricate, exacting, and condition specific movements/skill sets in arts like Kali to be able to use them effectively against an athletic, committed, intelligent edged weapon wielding opponent (let alone one who has trained how to use them).

613

The next time you need some extra motivation to train. Read a little about of Col. Nick Rowe. If you dont know about him, take the time to read his book. Respect to Col.Rowe.

614

There’s probably an ongoing discussion about this already at PWI, but I’d love to hear the combat forum chime in on this.

615

[quote]Vrednic wrote:

There’s probably an ongoing discussion about this already at PWI, but I’d love to hear the combat forum chime in on this.[/quote]

Most of that stuff isn’t required by first world police forces. The only thing I have a problem with is the camo clothing. I work in a blended urban/rural environment and I would want the option of using camo or black clothing for a call out if I was on an ERT.

Grenade launchers are useful for lobbing out smoke and gas. It’s not like they are using HE rounds. I suppose this one irks me as well.

This is just an attempt to change the optics of the “militarization” of police forces. I don’t know why Obama cares what color the uniforms are.

616

In reference to President Obama’s decision, I think you would find that he banned a lot of items that we don’t use anyway. I mean…I’ve never seen a department use a tracked armored vehicle, or a caliber higher than a .50 cal. To a great extent, I think it was a carefully planned move to satisfy those calling for “de-militarization” without actually taking anything awy.

The grenade launcher thing is smoke and mirrors, at best. We have launchers that are 40mm, but police departments use them for gas and direct impact (sponge or beanbag) type rounds. We don’t have access to HE rounds, that I’ve ever seen, nor would we want them. I’m not about to drop and HEDP round through a window just cos somebody made me mad.

IMHO, the whole “demilitarization” movement is a straw man argument, designed by crooks (and those who support them) to hamstring the police. They probably think they’ve achieved a victory here, but they really didn’t.

617

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
In reference to President Obama’s decision, I think you would find that he banned a lot of items that we don’t use anyway. I mean…I’ve never seen a department use a tracked armored vehicle, or a caliber higher than a .50 cal. To a great extent, I think it was a carefully planned move to satisfy those calling for “de-militarization” without actually taking anything awy.

The grenade launcher thing is smoke and mirrors, at best. We have launchers that are 40mm, but police departments use them for gas and direct impact (sponge or beanbag) type rounds. We don’t have access to HE rounds, that I’ve ever seen, nor would we want them. I’m not about to drop and HEDP round through a window just cos somebody made me mad.

IMHO, the whole “demilitarization” movement is a straw man argument, designed by crooks (and those who support them) to hamstring the police. They probably think they’ve achieved a victory here, but they really didn’t. [/quote]

Pretty much agree with this and Will’s post above.With the possible exception of the whole camo thing, which I can see as being useful for ERT/tactical guys in certain situations, this stuff is fairly irrelevant.

Seems like a political move that will probably have virtually no impact on how LE does business, but will create the appearance that something is being done.

618

^^

It’s easy enough to work around that, though. The decision simply states the US Govt can’t give camo to police departments…doesn’t say they can’t buy them on their own. I imagine most departments buy them new from the manufacturer anyway.

My team doesn’t wear camo, but we do wear a color called “Ranger green”. Bought them from Crye Precision…sex appeal in a box, brah!!

619

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
In reference to President Obama’s decision, I think you would find that he banned a lot of items that we don’t use anyway. I mean…I’ve never seen a department use a tracked armored vehicle, or a caliber higher than a .50 cal. To a great extent, I think it was a carefully planned move to satisfy those calling for “de-militarization” without actually taking anything awy.

The grenade launcher thing is smoke and mirrors, at best. We have launchers that are 40mm, but police departments use them for gas and direct impact (sponge or beanbag) type rounds. We don’t have access to HE rounds, that I’ve ever seen, nor would we want them. I’m not about to drop and HEDP round through a window just cos somebody made me mad.

IMHO, the whole “demilitarization” movement is a straw man argument, designed by crooks (and those who support them) to hamstring the police. They probably think they’ve achieved a victory here, but they really didn’t. [/quote]

X2^^^^^^^^^^.its all a joke anyway to spread some crap for the media/public.

on another note: A good cop died on the line of duty in Omaha. Someone started a discussion on PWI,This was a response from “Sexmachine” :

"I’ve tried to like police and take their side when it’s warranted but I really can’t keep that one up any longer either. Most are scumbags; the rest too weak to stand up to the others. Good cops? Yeah, there’s a few in each bunch but they’re too weak to do anything about the rest. But I’m sure they feel plenty bad about all the shit they see and don’t report. The good ones all leave quick smart when they find out what the force is really like. That leaves bad eggs and weaklings. Add a few lesbians and that’s your force.

I would’ve liked it better back in the day when they kick the shit out of you instead of setting you up. Hard to have respect for local court magistrates too when you know what most of them are like, what they overlook and how much respect they have for the law. I’m sure the cops will get by without me putting in my usual good word for them"

Nice isn’t it? you die in the line of duty by a piece of shit and this is a typical response. I have spent the last 11 years trying to track and locate terrorists, people who will cut your head off for sport. These same assholes are within the US, as gangs, “lone rats”, bikers, dopers, human traffickers, etc…and cops die fighting everyday and this above is a typical response. I think Robert A had it right, its time to move on from this type of shit.

620

Hey, Idaho…good to see you on here again.

As for the PWI guys…meh…fuck them. Bunch of useless, internet weaklings who talk tough on the interwebz, but wouldn’t pick up a rifle and stand a post if you paid them.

That’s their whole generation…bunch of sorry ass, “give me a trophy for doing nothing”, “pay me 20 bucks an hour to flip your burgers”, “have to cheat at a 1st person shooter video game to make me feel better about myself” bitches.

As you well know…it’s easy to talk tough til the bullets start flying. Don’t sweat them. That’s why I don’t even go over there anymore.

Besides…if we wanted people to like us, we could have joined the Fire Department, right???

621

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Hey, Idaho…good to see you on here again.

Besides…if we wanted people to like us, we could have joined the Fire Department, right???

[/quote]

2 barbecues, 2 sleepovers, 4 off…

622

FWIW, I’m pretty sure SexMachine has stated he is a “functional psychopath”. PWI has a group of individuals united in lunacy. I suspect they do not share their views with others in their daily face to face interactions, if they have any.

623

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
In reference to President Obama’s decision, I think you would find that he banned a lot of items that we don’t use anyway. I mean…I’ve never seen a department use a tracked armored vehicle, or a caliber higher than a .50 cal. To a great extent, I think it was a carefully planned move to satisfy those calling for “de-militarization” without actually taking anything awy.

The grenade launcher thing is smoke and mirrors, at best. We have launchers that are 40mm, but police departments use them for gas and direct impact (sponge or beanbag) type rounds. We don’t have access to HE rounds, that I’ve ever seen, nor would we want them. I’m not about to drop and HEDP round through a window just cos somebody made me mad.

IMHO, the whole “demilitarization” movement is a straw man argument, designed by crooks (and those who support them) to hamstring the police. They probably think they’ve achieved a victory here, but they really didn’t. [/quote]

X2^^^^^^^^^^.its all a joke anyway to spread some crap for the media/public.

on another note: A good cop died on the line of duty in Omaha. Someone started a discussion on PWI,This was a response from “Sexmachine” :

"I’ve tried to like police and take their side when it’s warranted but I really can’t keep that one up any longer either. Most are scumbags; the rest too weak to stand up to the others. Good cops? Yeah, there’s a few in each bunch but they’re too weak to do anything about the rest. But I’m sure they feel plenty bad about all the shit they see and don’t report. The good ones all leave quick smart when they find out what the force is really like. That leaves bad eggs and weaklings. Add a few lesbians and that’s your force.

I would’ve liked it better back in the day when they kick the shit out of you instead of setting you up. Hard to have respect for local court magistrates too when you know what most of them are like, what they overlook and how much respect they have for the law. I’m sure the cops will get by without me putting in my usual good word for them"

Nice isn’t it? you die in the line of duty by a piece of shit and this is a typical response. I have spent the last 11 years trying to track and locate terrorists, people who will cut your head off for sport. These same assholes are within the US, as gangs, “lone rats”, bikers, dopers, human traffickers, etc…and cops die fighting everyday and this above is a typical response. I think Robert A had it right, its time to move on from this type of shit.

[/quote]

It’s cynicism like this ^^^ that is keeping us divided and discouraging more and more of your population from participating in the political process. Most of the LEO’s that I know are good people who genuinely want to serve and protect their communities. I might disagree with some of them on some social issues or have some philosophical disagreements, but that doesn’t make them scumbags like this poster seems to be suggesting.

Yes, there are bad eggs, and unfortunately some of them are in administrative positions which gives them power to set policies for their departments and often wind up recruiting likeminded people, like we had in Ferguson where there was (at least according to the Justice System’s report/findings) a pattern of abuse of power and civil rights violations. That doesn’t make the whole system broken though and should not be used as justification to hate all LEO’s or not mourn the loss of good cops who are killed in the line of duty like the Omaha officer. Stories like hers break my heart to read (especially having a young child of my own) and just imagining the pain and sadness that her daughter and husband will forever feel at her loss and the fact that her daughter will never know or remember her literally causes my eyes to well up with tears.

What the hell is wrong with people in the World today that they seem to have lost all empathy or compassion for their fellow human beings?! I don’t care what color their skin is, what religion they practice (well, assuming they aren’t killing, maiming, or torturing people in the name of that religion), or what country they call home (again, assuming they aren’t killing, maiming, or torturing people unjustly in the name of that country); the lack of compassion for our fellow human beings and the amount of hatred, greed, and selfishness in this world is poisoning us as a species. There are still plenty of people fighting the good fight though and ther are still those doing their best to spread love, compassion, tolerance, hope, and peace to the World. So the fight is not lost yet. To those who can count yourselves amount that crowd (including Military personnel and LEO’s like Idaho and Mapwhap) I salute you and count you as allies.

Rant over. steps down off soap box

624

Sento,
Excellent post ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and thank you.

625

Anyone heard any updates on Robert A? Hope you are doing well, my friend.

626

I have wondered the same thing. I certainly hope you are alright, RobertA.

Idaho…how are you holding up over there??

627

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I have wondered the same thing. I certainly hope you are alright, RobertA.

Idaho…how are you holding up over there??[/quote]

Mapwrap,
Doing ok, thanks for asking. I am being reassigned to a task force in Kabul consisting of all the alphabet agencies, which means you spend 80% of your time dealing with egos and 20% working investigations. Glad no Dallas officers were hurt during that attack, especially since I remember you saying, you were working nights now. What a nutcase, just goes to show, whether its ISIS or local, its a dangerous job. keep safe and watch your 6.

628

Good to see you guys are well and still kicking around. Likewise I hope Robert A is doing ok, and his personal matters have been happily resolved.