Bad Ideas

Bigger Stronger Leaner
506

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Thanks batman,

I just tracked the thread down. I sort of skimmed 'till I got to Aragorn, Brett, and mapwhap’s posts because I knew them from here.

That thread was all over the place. I think a lot of folks were looking at things with the idea of supporting an existing opinion or talking point instead of just letting facts be what they are.

I also think we could use a bit of discussion on blood “choke” vs adequate circulation and air choke vs adequate ventilation. I know the “can’t breath” thing has come up in several in custody deaths in the past.

Stay safe everyone.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

It’s interesting to me how LNR/LVNR is treated by agencies in the States. Up here, within the agency I work with at least, it is an approved technique provided certain fairly strict criteria are met and it is properly applied by a trained and certified member. Certifications are mandatory on a continuing basis and are included within regular use of force re-certification.

It is not used as a come along, or compliance technique and once applied is not relinquished until the subject is rendered unconscious, the hold is deemed ineffective or impractical due to changing circumstances, or there is reason to believe the airway has become compromised and/or another risk factor becomes evident. There is no tap out.

It is by no means at the “lethal force” end of our continuum, again assuming proper application and absence of evident risk factors. Seems like a different ball of wax at most agencies down your way.

507

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Thanks batman,

I just tracked the thread down. I sort of skimmed 'till I got to Aragorn, Brett, and mapwhap’s posts because I knew them from here.

That thread was all over the place. I think a lot of folks were looking at things with the idea of supporting an existing opinion or talking point instead of just letting facts be what they are.

I also think we could use a bit of discussion on blood “choke” vs adequate circulation and air choke vs adequate ventilation. I know the “can’t breath” thing has come up in several in custody deaths in the past.

Stay safe everyone.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

It’s interesting to me how LNR/LVNR is treated by agencies in the States. Up here, within the agency I work with at least, it is an approved technique provided certain fairly strict criteria are met and it is properly applied by a trained and certified member. Certifications are mandatory on a continuing basis and are included within regular use of force re-certification.

It is not used as a come along, or compliance technique and once applied is not relinquished until the subject is rendered unconscious, the hold is deemed ineffective or impractical due to changing circumstances, or there is reason to believe the airway has become compromised and/or another risk factor becomes evident. There is no tap out.
[/quote]
I am already on record with my reservations about using them, but this reads as a very rational and intellectually honest way of using them.

[quote]
It is by no means at the “lethal force” end of our continuum, again assuming proper application and absence of evident risk factors. Seems like a different ball of wax at most agencies down your way.[/quote]
I struggle with them conceptually because done well they are perhaps the least damaging way to “make” someone stop being a threat. Unfortunately they should also be assumed to trigger a fight to the death response. As a practice point, should you apply one to one of your students/partners and then hold it after they start tapping for 1 or 2 seconds they tend to not be “thinking” and be “pissed” when you release it. So if used, making sure the threat is ended is really the only way outside of a contest.

I don’t think there is all that much parity in US law enforcement. One department runs on laziness, nepotism, and a lack of accountability and the next jurisdiction over all the officers are on the side of the angels. If you are just passing through they look the same. I tend the think the average is pretty damn good compared with the rest of the globe or the totality of history though.

I am tired now, but I think I am going to write something about the ventilation vs choke thing and see what people have to add.

Regards,

Robert A

508

Robert,
Good to see you back. Thank you for posting the videos, however, I am unable to view them at this time. As you recall, the Russians/ Chinese/ North Koreans (who really knows) hacked into the Department of State system last month, because of that little problem, DOD/DOS has locked us down tight with new regulations. I have to get to a civilian computer to view them, and, I am currently in a very remote area. So, I will save them for later. Based on the comments, they must be really worth seeing. Good to have you back.

Mapwrap,
While waiting for an airbridge, I read Robert’s and Batman’s discussion about your journey over to PWI on the NYPD. Brother, I made vast mistake the other day and looked over a few discussions. After loosing it, ( read below), I decided that I cannot even read the self centered, fake intellectual pontificating from people with no real world experience and from what I can observe, serve no purpose. I will spend my time here, at least, you are with kindred souls.

I must agree with your above post, it does seem like I have been a fool most of the time:)). Anyway, this gentlemen states that flying a plane into a building is not an act of cowardice. Since, I have been on the scene where some “brave Muslim warrior” walked into a grade school and detonated, killing over 50 children, saw their body parts hanging from walls and floors, yeah, what a brave warrior! Instead of getting an AK and facing combat like a man, lets blow up kids. Anyway, sorry for the rant. My response is below. BTW, I agree with your responses on the NYPD issue, but, hey what do we know, we have just done it for real, we are not half as smart as the people that populate that wasted forum. Never again.

“Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly”

“Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go”

My response:

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.

509

Idaho,

You and I are in total agreement regarding the vast majority of the folks who populate the PWI forum. It was my mistake for even entering into what I thought would be a reasonable discussion. I won’t make that mistake a second time, I assure you.

I read the forum post you are refeing to regarding the 9-11 hijackers. I was left pretty speechless, and I just left the thread. I refuse to expend the energy on morons like that.

Frankly, I should have taken that position regarding the NYC chokehold thread.

Robert,

I agreed with your position regarding this thread…let’s just go back to mocking ridiculous TTP’s…no need to rehash the chokehold thing unless you just REALLY want to.

And I’m glad you can appreciate my sarcasm. Sometimes, Mrs Mapwhap finds it a bit tedious…

510

Ok, one last rant, and then i will do my part to keep this excellent thread on track.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/asiapacific/2014/12/16/twenty-killed-in-taliban-attack-on-school.html

Lets see: according to the article, 17 school children were killed and 36 wounded. The Taliban has taken credit and stated its “fighters” were instructed to “shoot older students”.

Now, our fine intellectual elites over at PWI would probably consider that a “brave” act, you know, its takes a “strong belief in your religion” to kill children, in fact, can you imagine how much of a higher order of your “belief” it would take to actually face someone in a stand up fight?

511

[quote]idaho wrote:
Robert,
Good to see you back. Thank you for posting the videos, however, I am unable to view them at this time. As you recall, the Russians/ Chinese/ North Koreans (who really knows) hacked into the Department of State system last month, because of that little problem, DOD/DOS has locked us down tight with new regulations. I have to get to a civilian computer to view them, and, I am currently in a very remote area. So, I will save them for later. Based on the comments, they must be really worth seeing. Good to have you back.
[/quote]

The videos are very special. I think they might cheer you and your co workers up.

512

mapwhap,

You are certainly under no obligation to share your knowledge/opinions. I am glad you do so here, but understand if you simply forgo educating in other areas.

Something to keep in mind though is that a lot of people read, but don’t post. It is possible your factual points reached those minds, and those who are looking for info and not already vested in a position/narrative then have the opportunity to learn/think. This board has a higher percentage of folks looking to learn/get better than argue posting, but I don’t know about lurking.

Hell, I posted the NYC choke vid in this thread because I no bullshit couldn’t square what I saw with what I was being told happened so rather than just go with the socially accepted narrative or assume “I am right, the media is wrong” I posted here because while I don’t have the BTDT background for that a bunch of you folks do. Basically, I asked for help knowing full well that asking active LEO’s to comment on a use of force/ongoing investigation isn’t exactly the nicest question. Still I got answers. It is likely at least a few folks learned from your posts in that thread, even if they didn’t post “thank you’s”.

Regards,

Robert A

513

idaho,

Sorry for your loss. One aspect of open forums is that anyone can read and comment. This does mean that we essentially “say” things to folks we wouldn’t in real life. I wouldn’t have “said” what I wrote about the cop killers to the families of those people. I would have said “sorry for your loss” and moved on. I own everything I wrote, but in person I wouldn’t volunteer it to someone who is dealing with loss. It is possible some of the lunacy you read should be taken as “dumb conversation between two people you overhear” and not “public statement”. Doesn’t make it less misguided, but perhaps less insulting?

Another thing is some people like to have pedantic arguments for no reason. I try not to be guilty of this, but I do think “words mean things” so phrasing can matter. The brave vs coward bullshit kind of blows by me because the word I would pick is “different”. That might not sound like much, but here is my reasoning.

Those pieces of shit are very, very different than any of my frames of reference. Generally “brave” could be attached to anyone willing to self sacrifice for what they believe is right, even if I really don’t agree with them, but terrorist attacks aren’t A bridge too far, they are a different fucking paradigm. The value system of the people you have been facing is damn near orthogonal to my own.

In an anthropological sense they are not Western. Their thought has not been influenced by the hundreds of years of western Christian, enlightenment, post enlightenment, humanist, and secular philosophies that shape what I walk around with. They got other stuff. I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity.

I don’t even know if brave vs coward can fit in a paradigm where martyrdom is not just venerated, but is held to be the easiest path to reward. If one perceives a literal reward of getting laid a bunch for the act it tends to make it more “high school football” and less “We Were Soldiers Once, and Young”. Speaking of different, if you wanted to motivate a twenty year old Robert A to do dangerous shit pussy would have been a great tool to use, but virgins? Having to hear “Ouch. Careful. Slow” 40 frigging times is not something I would actively court.

I mean, I AM left with different because the value system is so fucking incomprehensible to me that I don’t think normal descriptors work. As for the fucktards who are calling Taliban “brave”, well they could be assholes, or stupid, or they might be trying to comprehend something you have been neck deep in for ten years. That not all sacrifice is good or laudable. Not all savages are “noble”. And that while we can’t really predict or “judge” the actions of another based on our value, we ABSOLUTELY need to use our value system in deciding how to deal with them. Or they are just fucktards.

Train hard, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A

514

[quote]Robert A wrote:
idaho,

Sorry for your loss. One aspect of open forums is that anyone can read and comment. This does mean that we essentially “say” things to folks we wouldn’t in real life. I wouldn’t have “said” what I wrote about the cop killers to the families of those people. I would have said “sorry for your loss” and moved on. I own everything I wrote, but in person I wouldn’t volunteer it to someone who is dealing with loss. It is possible some of the lunacy you read should be taken as “dumb conversation between two people you overhear” and not “public statement”. Doesn’t make it less misguided, but perhaps less insulting?

Another thing is some people like to have pedantic arguments for no reason. I try not to be guilty of this, but I do think “words mean things” so phrasing can matter. The brave vs coward bullshit kind of blows by me because the word I would pick is “different”. That might not sound like much, but here is my reasoning.

Those pieces of shit are very, very different than any of my frames of reference. Generally “brave” could be attached to anyone willing to self sacrifice for what they believe is right, even if I really don’t agree with them, but terrorist attacks aren’t A bridge too far, they are a different fucking paradigm. The value system of the people you have been facing is damn near orthogonal to my own.

In an anthropological sense they are not Western. Their thought has not been influenced by the hundreds of years of western Christian, enlightenment, post enlightenment, humanist, and secular philosophies that shape what I walk around with. They got other stuff. I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity.

I don’t even know if brave vs coward can fit in a paradigm where martyrdom is not just venerated, but is held to be the easiest path to reward. If one perceives a literal reward of getting laid a bunch for the act it tends to make it more “high school football” and less “We Were Soldiers Once, and Young”. Speaking of different, if you wanted to motivate a twenty year old Robert A to do dangerous shit pussy would have been a great tool to use, but virgins? Having to hear “Ouch. Careful. Slow” 40 frigging times is not something I would actively court.

I mean, I AM left with different because the value system is so fucking incomprehensible to me that I don’t think normal descriptors work. As for the fucktards who are calling Taliban “brave”, well they could be assholes, or stupid, or they might be trying to comprehend something you have been neck deep in for ten years. That not all sacrifice is good or laudable. Not all savages are “noble”. And that while we can’t really predict or “judge” the actions of another based on our value, we ABSOLUTELY need to use our value system in deciding how to deal with them. Or they are just fucktards.

Train hard, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Well said Robert.

I would add that describing the wholesale slaughter of innocents as an act of courage is either asinine or insane or both.

However, deliberately blowing yourself up in the process I would describe as an act of considerable resolve. We in the West (not so much those who serve but us cake eating civilians) would do well to recognize that level of resolve for what it is and do our own gut check as to where ours is at.

It seems to me, cake eating civilian that I am, that if you cannot meet your enemy on somewhat equal footing in terms of resolve (not tactics or values) it becomes difficult to fight him. And if anybody ever needed fighting, it’s these assholes.

515

[quote]Robert A wrote:
idaho,

Sorry for your loss. One aspect of open forums is that anyone can read and comment. This does mean that we essentially “say” things to folks we wouldn’t in real life. I wouldn’t have “said” what I wrote about the cop killers to the families of those people. I would have said “sorry for your loss” and moved on. I own everything I wrote, but in person I wouldn’t volunteer it to someone who is dealing with loss. It is possible some of the lunacy you read should be taken as “dumb conversation between two people you overhear” and not “public statement”. Doesn’t make it less misguided, but perhaps less insulting?

Another thing is some people like to have pedantic arguments for no reason. I try not to be guilty of this, but I do think “words mean things” so phrasing can matter. The brave vs coward bullshit kind of blows by me because the word I would pick is “different”. That might not sound like much, but here is my reasoning.

Those pieces of shit are very, very different than any of my frames of reference. Generally “brave” could be attached to anyone willing to self sacrifice for what they believe is right, even if I really don’t agree with them, but terrorist attacks aren’t A bridge too far, they are a different fucking paradigm. The value system of the people you have been facing is damn near orthogonal to my own.

In an anthropological sense they are not Western. Their thought has not been influenced by the hundreds of years of western Christian, enlightenment, post enlightenment, humanist, and secular philosophies that shape what I walk around with. They got other stuff. I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity.

I don’t even know if brave vs coward can fit in a paradigm where martyrdom is not just venerated, but is held to be the easiest path to reward. If one perceives a literal reward of getting laid a bunch for the act it tends to make it more “high school football” and less “We Were Soldiers Once, and Young”. Speaking of different, if you wanted to motivate a twenty year old Robert A to do dangerous shit pussy would have been a great tool to use, but virgins? Having to hear “Ouch. Careful. Slow” 40 frigging times is not something I would actively court.

I mean, I AM left with different because the value system is so fucking incomprehensible to me that I don’t think normal descriptors work. As for the fucktards who are calling Taliban “brave”, well they could be assholes, or stupid, or they might be trying to comprehend something you have been neck deep in for ten years. That not all sacrifice is good or laudable. Not all savages are “noble”. And that while we can’t really predict or “judge” the actions of another based on our value, we ABSOLUTELY need to use our value system in deciding how to deal with them. Or they are just fucktards.

Train hard, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]
Robert- PURE GOLD, let me just say this once, if you wrote a magazine/article/monthly colunm I would buy it. Thanks for expending the energy to put your thoughts down here.

516

[quote]Robert A wrote:
idaho,

Sorry for your loss. One aspect of open forums is that anyone can read and comment. This does mean that we essentially “say” things to folks we wouldn’t in real life. I wouldn’t have “said” what I wrote about the cop killers to the families of those people. I would have said “sorry for your loss” and moved on. I own everything I wrote, but in person I wouldn’t volunteer it to someone who is dealing with loss. It is possible some of the lunacy you read should be taken as “dumb conversation between two people you overhear” and not “public statement”. Doesn’t make it less misguided, but perhaps less insulting?

Another thing is some people like to have pedantic arguments for no reason. I try not to be guilty of this, but I do think “words mean things” so phrasing can matter. The brave vs coward bullshit kind of blows by me because the word I would pick is “different”. That might not sound like much, but here is my reasoning.

Those pieces of shit are very, very different than any of my frames of reference. Generally “brave” could be attached to anyone willing to self sacrifice for what they believe is right, even if I really don’t agree with them, but terrorist attacks aren’t A bridge too far, they are a different fucking paradigm. The value system of the people you have been facing is damn near orthogonal to my own.

In an anthropological sense they are not Western. Their thought has not been influenced by the hundreds of years of western Christian, enlightenment, post enlightenment, humanist, and secular philosophies that shape what I walk around with. They got other stuff. I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity.

I don’t even know if brave vs coward can fit in a paradigm where martyrdom is not just venerated, but is held to be the easiest path to reward. If one perceives a literal reward of getting laid a bunch for the act it tends to make it more “high school football” and less “We Were Soldiers Once, and Young”. Speaking of different, if you wanted to motivate a twenty year old Robert A to do dangerous shit pussy would have been a great tool to use, but virgins? Having to hear “Ouch. Careful. Slow” 40 frigging times is not something I would actively court.

I mean, I AM left with different because the value system is so fucking incomprehensible to me that I don’t think normal descriptors work. As for the fucktards who are calling Taliban “brave”, well they could be assholes, or stupid, or they might be trying to comprehend something you have been neck deep in for ten years. That not all sacrifice is good or laudable. Not all savages are “noble”. And that while we can’t really predict or “judge” the actions of another based on our value, we ABSOLUTELY need to use our value system in deciding how to deal with them. Or they are just fucktards.

Train hard, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Robert,
Thank you, great post and Dude said it best: Pure Gold.

“I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity”

I am been immersed in this “faith” for a long time, both active combat and training. A part of the problem, from my own experiences,is there is no accountability for individual action. If your “religious leader” tells you its ok, then it ok, you dont have to think for yourself, you dont have to make the moral call, hell, everything you do is blessed. Think of taking a western child and start brainwashing them at the age of 2, to give their life for whatever God you believe in , by the time they are 10 years of age, they are ready to strap on a bomb vest.

“On Tuesday, Taliban gunmen massacred more than a hundred children in Peshawar, Pakistan. Witnesses say some of the female teachers were burned alive” :from Sky News.

If you deal with this on a regular basis, if you personally witness this evil, you have to constantly be on guard to not fall into some black hole of desperation, because, you know. deep down that if you kill 10 today or 100 tomorrow or 100,000 next week, it will not make any difference. They will still be there murdering children , beheading captives, and burning teachers alive. So, all you can do is train hard, stay sharp, and know that each one that gets his wish to visit Allah, is one less somebody’s baby will not have to fight in the future.

Thanks again for the post. I will check out those videos. Stay safe, watch your 6.

517

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
idaho,

Sorry for your loss. One aspect of open forums is that anyone can read and comment. This does mean that we essentially “say” things to folks we wouldn’t in real life. I wouldn’t have “said” what I wrote about the cop killers to the families of those people. I would have said “sorry for your loss” and moved on. I own everything I wrote, but in person I wouldn’t volunteer it to someone who is dealing with loss. It is possible some of the lunacy you read should be taken as “dumb conversation between two people you overhear” and not “public statement”. Doesn’t make it less misguided, but perhaps less insulting?

Another thing is some people like to have pedantic arguments for no reason. I try not to be guilty of this, but I do think “words mean things” so phrasing can matter. The brave vs coward bullshit kind of blows by me because the word I would pick is “different”. That might not sound like much, but here is my reasoning.

Those pieces of shit are very, very different than any of my frames of reference. Generally “brave” could be attached to anyone willing to self sacrifice for what they believe is right, even if I really don’t agree with them, but terrorist attacks aren’t A bridge too far, they are a different fucking paradigm. The value system of the people you have been facing is damn near orthogonal to my own.

In an anthropological sense they are not Western. Their thought has not been influenced by the hundreds of years of western Christian, enlightenment, post enlightenment, humanist, and secular philosophies that shape what I walk around with. They got other stuff. I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity.

I don’t even know if brave vs coward can fit in a paradigm where martyrdom is not just venerated, but is held to be the easiest path to reward. If one perceives a literal reward of getting laid a bunch for the act it tends to make it more “high school football” and less “We Were Soldiers Once, and Young”. Speaking of different, if you wanted to motivate a twenty year old Robert A to do dangerous shit pussy would have been a great tool to use, but virgins? Having to hear “Ouch. Careful. Slow” 40 frigging times is not something I would actively court.

I mean, I AM left with different because the value system is so fucking incomprehensible to me that I don’t think normal descriptors work. As for the fucktards who are calling Taliban “brave”, well they could be assholes, or stupid, or they might be trying to comprehend something you have been neck deep in for ten years. That not all sacrifice is good or laudable. Not all savages are “noble”. And that while we can’t really predict or “judge” the actions of another based on our value, we ABSOLUTELY need to use our value system in deciding how to deal with them. Or they are just fucktards.

Train hard, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Well said Robert.

I would add that describing the wholesale slaughter of innocents as an act of courage is either asinine or insane or both.

However, deliberately blowing yourself up in the process I would describe as an act of considerable resolve. We in the West (not so much those who serve but us cake eating civilians) would do well to recognize that level of resolve for what it is and do our own gut check as to where ours is at.

It seems to me, cake eating civilian that I am, that if you cannot meet your enemy on somewhat equal footing in terms of resolve (not tactics or values) it becomes difficult to fight him. And if anybody ever needed fighting, it’s these assholes.
[/quote]

Batman,
You brought up an interesting concept on resolve vs values, would really make a good theis. War with evil though is different, I am not sure placing your values above your resolve to destory evil would gain you victory, but, this is something the fine people on PWI can debate.

You received any information concerning the academy? Wish you well. Stay safe, train hard. Watch your 6.

518

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
idaho,

Sorry for your loss. One aspect of open forums is that anyone can read and comment. This does mean that we essentially “say” things to folks we wouldn’t in real life. I wouldn’t have “said” what I wrote about the cop killers to the families of those people. I would have said “sorry for your loss” and moved on. I own everything I wrote, but in person I wouldn’t volunteer it to someone who is dealing with loss. It is possible some of the lunacy you read should be taken as “dumb conversation between two people you overhear” and not “public statement”. Doesn’t make it less misguided, but perhaps less insulting?

Another thing is some people like to have pedantic arguments for no reason. I try not to be guilty of this, but I do think “words mean things” so phrasing can matter. The brave vs coward bullshit kind of blows by me because the word I would pick is “different”. That might not sound like much, but here is my reasoning.

Those pieces of shit are very, very different than any of my frames of reference. Generally “brave” could be attached to anyone willing to self sacrifice for what they believe is right, even if I really don’t agree with them, but terrorist attacks aren’t A bridge too far, they are a different fucking paradigm. The value system of the people you have been facing is damn near orthogonal to my own.

In an anthropological sense they are not Western. Their thought has not been influenced by the hundreds of years of western Christian, enlightenment, post enlightenment, humanist, and secular philosophies that shape what I walk around with. They got other stuff. I cannot fathom a value system where school attacks, throwing acid on little girls faces, poisoning children, institutional pederasty (VICE had a great documentary on that if you want a college kid approved source) are seen not just as ok but RIGHT, as in in line with divinity.

I don’t even know if brave vs coward can fit in a paradigm where martyrdom is not just venerated, but is held to be the easiest path to reward. If one perceives a literal reward of getting laid a bunch for the act it tends to make it more “high school football” and less “We Were Soldiers Once, and Young”. Speaking of different, if you wanted to motivate a twenty year old Robert A to do dangerous shit pussy would have been a great tool to use, but virgins? Having to hear “Ouch. Careful. Slow” 40 frigging times is not something I would actively court.

I mean, I AM left with different because the value system is so fucking incomprehensible to me that I don’t think normal descriptors work. As for the fucktards who are calling Taliban “brave”, well they could be assholes, or stupid, or they might be trying to comprehend something you have been neck deep in for ten years. That not all sacrifice is good or laudable. Not all savages are “noble”. And that while we can’t really predict or “judge” the actions of another based on our value, we ABSOLUTELY need to use our value system in deciding how to deal with them. Or they are just fucktards.

Train hard, stay safe.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Well said Robert.

I would add that describing the wholesale slaughter of innocents as an act of courage is either asinine or insane or both.

However, deliberately blowing yourself up in the process I would describe as an act of considerable resolve. We in the West (not so much those who serve but us cake eating civilians) would do well to recognize that level of resolve for what it is and do our own gut check as to where ours is at.

It seems to me, cake eating civilian that I am, that if you cannot meet your enemy on somewhat equal footing in terms of resolve (not tactics or values) it becomes difficult to fight him. And if anybody ever needed fighting, it’s these assholes.
[/quote]

Batman,
You brought up an interesting concept on resolve vs values, would really make a good theis. War with evil though is different, I am not sure placing your values above your resolve to destory evil would gain you victory, but, this is something the fine people on PWI can debate.

You received any information concerning the academy? Wish you well. Stay safe, train hard. Watch your 6.
[/quote]

Yeah, I can appreciate how when you’re balls deep in the reality of all that madness day in day out the philosophical questions would tend to become a bit less relevant. Thanks again for your service.

Thanks for the warm wishes regarding the recruiting process. As of today I need to update some of my info for the final background/reference checks for my final review and security clearance for the RCMP. Other than providing accurate info for them to follow up on, as far as I know my active role in the process (i.e. interviews etc) is done and all there is to do is await the findings of their field investigation, medical clearance etc. My background is pretty boring and I’m in good health, so I’m not overly concerned, but time will tell.

I have a final interview with a municipal PD coming early in January. Looking forward to that as well. At this point it’s simply a matter of whichever door opens first. No real preference. I am confident in a positive outcome, one way or the other, but the waiting game is a psychological grind at times. In the grander scheme, however, it’s a pretty good problem to have. I’m really looking forward to making a move.

Be safe.

519

Batman,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. That is good news. I think once before, I mentioned, if you are able to document your training in the academy, I would be very interested, simply because, I am not well versed on Canadian law enforcement. I have worked along side some of your military and was always impressed with their training and attitude. When I was working drugs for the feds, we did one joint case with the RCMP, but, it was a short affair and I didnt get to spend a lot of time with the unit. Good luck on the interviews. Stay sharp.

520

[quote]idaho wrote:
Batman,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. That is good news. I think once before, I mentioned, if you are able to document your training in the academy, I would be very interested, simply because, I am not well versed on Canadian law enforcement. I have worked along side some of your military and was always impressed with their training and attitude. When I was working drugs for the feds, we did one joint case with the RCMP, but, it was a short affair and I didnt get to spend a lot of time with the unit. Good luck on the interviews. Stay sharp. [/quote]

Thanks idaho. If it’s of interest, I’d be more than happy to share some of my academy experiences (to the extent that I can get away with it). I expect you’ll find it’s fairly similar to the US, but it could make for a good discussion.

Regarding our military. I am ridiculously proud of our military, despite the fact that we apparently don’t have one. In terms of training, professionalism, and spirit I get the overwhelming impression that our boys (and gals) are nothing short of exemplary. The closest thing that I have to a regret from my adult life is that I never served.

Cheers!

521

760×220 18.2 KB

A good idea: For US citizens living in states with very restrictive gun laws (Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, California, etc), Ares Defense Systems has developed the Sport Configurable Rifle (SCR) that is legal in all 50 states. A lightweight 5.56 caliber weapon that accepts STANAG mags and AR-15 uppers. For those of you familar or trained on the 870 stock configuration, you will want to check this out. Train hard, Prepare.

For a detailed review of the weapon: www.recoilweb.com. issue 16.

522

[quote]idaho wrote:
A good idea: For US citizens living in states with very restrictive gun laws (Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, California, etc), Ares Defense Systems has developed the Sport Configurable Rifle (SCR) that is legal in all 50 states. A lightweight 5.56 caliber weapon that accepts STANAG mags and AR-15 uppers. For those of you familar or trained on the 870 stock configuration, you will want to check this out. Train hard, Prepare.

For a detailed review of the weapon: www.recoilweb.com. issue 16.

 [/quote]

I saw those and thought they looked really interesting. I think they are pretty much designed to be a thumb in the eye to the NY (un)SAFE act and Cali’s new stance on the “bullet button”.

I have my doubts about the new angled buffer being robust, but I would love for the gun to work well. If nothing else it is an alternative to the mini-14 for a carbine.

The 870 controls are no doubt appealing to a lot of folks, but I am in the lefty group so I play on team Mossberg.

Regards,

Robert A

523

Sentinel Event

I am misappropriating the term “sentinel event” from the Joint Commission in part because “teachable moment” has a shit ton of baggage now, especially if someone who is outside the field deans to do said teaching, and also because it implies that I would have answers instead of just making a “damn this is bad, maybe we can avoid similar” post.

This is the OIS where Trooper Groubert shoots Levar Jones after ordering Jones to produce his ID/driver’s license and Jones “jumps to” and spins and reaches into his truck to get it.

Short video:

Trooper Groubert has since been fired, arrested, and charged with assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature, which carries up to 20 years in prison.

Trial Verdict is delayed for 270 days from end of october

There is apparently a longer 50 plus minute dashcam that includes Groubert’s brief recollection of events at the scene. His recall doesn’t seem to coincide with the footage, not making that an accusation just a data point for his perception/stress response.

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2014/10/03/4516433_longer-video-shows-more-on-shooting.html?rh=1

The above has the transcript of the shooting.

Reasons for posting:

I am not trying to make an OMG the cops are _____ post.

My take on the above is both former Trooper Groubert and Jones were in “cruise control” in a situation they both needed to start paying attention to and thinking sooner.

For Jones/anyone pulled over or approached:
I cannot imagine a thought process where spinning around and reaching into my vehicle during a non-consensual contact with an LEO is a good idea. Hell, I don’t think it is advisable to reach anywhere without describing it first and then asking for permission to follow the lawful command. Yes this has aggravated an LEO in the past, but videos like this make me adopt the attitude that I would rather come off half retarded or be painfully slow than get smoked attitude.

For anyone who does Groubert’s former job:
A good deal has been made of the fact that he did in fact order Jones to do exactly what he then shot him for. His “Can I see your license please?” request is, functionally, a command and it was followed with enthusiasm. I am damn certain his defense team would be liking things better if he had found a way to work “slowly” into the order, or asked where the ID was before ordering it produced.

That likely reads like monday morning quarterbacking because it is on both counts. I am sure Groubert did that dance a bunch and most honest folks didn’t veer into looking like an imminent threat. I am sure Jones nervous, quick compliance showed submission the majority of times it played out in childhood or a particularly dysfunctional work environment. This time Jones made himself look “wrong” when trying to comply and Groubert is defending his life because he thought he had to defend his life.

I am not a cop, so I really don’t have solutions, except to say I am comfortable with the idea of my own words being used against me/being saved or hung by my own orders. Sometimes you have time to be a little extra clear or slow things down. That way if someone is non-compliant you know they mean to be. If nothing else it helps from a “liability management” perspective.

Train hard, stay safe

Regards,

Robert A

524

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Sentinel Event

I am misappropriating the term “sentinel event” from the Joint Commission in part because “teachable moment” has a shit ton of baggage now, especially if someone who is outside the field deans to do said teaching, and also because it implies that I would have answers instead of just making a “damn this is bad, maybe we can avoid similar” post.

This is the OIS where Trooper Groubert shoots Levar Jones after ordering Jones to produce his ID/driver’s license and Jones “jumps to” and spins and reaches into his truck to get it.

Short video:

Trooper Groubert has since been fired, arrested, and charged with assault and battery of a high and aggravated nature, which carries up to 20 years in prison.

Trial Verdict is delayed for 270 days from end of october

There is apparently a longer 50 plus minute dashcam that includes Groubert’s brief recollection of events at the scene. His recall doesn’t seem to coincide with the footage, not making that an accusation just a data point for his perception/stress response.

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2014/10/03/4516433_longer-video-shows-more-on-shooting.html?rh=1

The above has the transcript of the shooting.

Reasons for posting:

I am not trying to make an OMG the cops are _____ post.

My take on the above is both former Trooper Groubert and Jones were in “cruise control” in a situation they both needed to start paying attention to and thinking sooner.

For Jones/anyone pulled over or approached:
I cannot imagine a thought process where spinning around and reaching into my vehicle during a non-consensual contact with an LEO is a good idea. Hell, I don’t think it is advisable to reach anywhere without describing it first and then asking for permission to follow the lawful command. Yes this has aggravated an LEO in the past, but videos like this make me adopt the attitude that I would rather come off half retarded or be painfully slow than get smoked attitude.

For anyone who does Groubert’s former job:
A good deal has been made of the fact that he did in fact order Jones to do exactly what he then shot him for. His “Can I see your license please?” request is, functionally, a command and it was followed with enthusiasm. I am damn certain his defense team would be liking things better if he had found a way to work “slowly” into the order, or asked where the ID was before ordering it produced.

That likely reads like monday morning quarterbacking because it is on both counts. I am sure Groubert did that dance a bunch and most honest folks didn’t veer into looking like an imminent threat. I am sure Jones nervous, quick compliance showed submission the majority of times it played out in childhood or a particularly dysfunctional work environment. This time Jones made himself look “wrong” when trying to comply and Groubert is defending his life because he thought he had to defend his life.

I am not a cop, so I really don’t have solutions, except to say I am comfortable with the idea of my own words being used against me/being saved or hung by my own orders. Sometimes you have time to be a little extra clear or slow things down. That way if someone is non-compliant you know they mean to be. If nothing else it helps from a “liability management” perspective.

Train hard, stay safe

Regards,

Robert A
[/quote]

Really unfortunate outcome.

Regarding your policy about reaching for ID etc during police contact, people often think I’m borderline retarded anyway, so they may as well think so without putting any extra holes in me.

525

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
A good idea: For US citizens living in states with very restrictive gun laws (Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, California, etc), Ares Defense Systems has developed the Sport Configurable Rifle (SCR) that is legal in all 50 states. A lightweight 5.56 caliber weapon that accepts STANAG mags and AR-15 uppers. For those of you familar or trained on the 870 stock configuration, you will want to check this out. Train hard, Prepare.

For a detailed review of the weapon: www.recoilweb.com. issue 16.

 [/quote]

I saw those and thought they looked really interesting. I think they are pretty much designed to be a thumb in the eye to the NY (un)SAFE act and Cali’s new stance on the “bullet button”.

I have my doubts about the new angled buffer being robust, but I would love for the gun to work well. If nothing else it is an alternative to the mini-14 for a carbine.

The 870 controls are no doubt appealing to a lot of folks, but I am in the lefty group so I play on team Mossberg.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Yes, I agree about the buffer. I was trying to think along the lines of a civilian having legal access to a decent weapon. I am not a fan of the Mini-14, it takes a competent gunsmith to rework the design system for anything remotely approaching combat efficiency. Regardless, I dont think the average civilian is going into a prolonged firefight, so, maybe they will at least have access to a weapon for short term fight or home defense that would best be served by a carbine.

Pertaining to your comment on Irish’s log: Whatever the situation, I sincerely wish you and your loved ones a successful and healthy outcome. Take care of yourself first, so, that you will be strong enough to take care of others.