T Nation

Back to the Iron

hey

im a newbie to this forum but ive been lifting for about 2 years. im now 19.

i play rugby and was training pretty hard for the last 2 years until i had a string of injuries which have kept me on the sideline for nearly a year. ive recoverd now and want to start back into training hard.

im currently about 21 stone, 6 ft. max bench at the moment is 90-100kg (but it was 130kg)… and max squat at the moment is 165-175kg (have touched 215 when i was training).

my goals are basically strength related… would like to be back benching 130kg or more asap and the same with squat. i would also like to develop more explosive power for tackling people and scrumaging. i am not too worried about weight… would like to dip under 20 stone but i need to keep the weight up for rugby. just aslong as i can run for 80 mins… at the moment im struggling to do 45min.

my plan at the minute is to train on the free weights monday to thursday, rest friday, play a match on saturday and do something light on a sunday. i also have rugby training on tuesday and thursdays so this is where i will get all my cardio from. i plan to eat a high protein diet 4-5 times a day but may increase carbs on thursday and friday to provide energy for match on saturday.

i am able to train either early morning eg 8am or night around 7pm. which time is better?

i am also going to take Maximuscles Promax protein shake and La Muscles Norateen II.

Is anyone in the same boat as me? and is their anything i am doing wrong or should i completly change my thinking?

thanks for any replys…

Hi mate. Do you have a workout already or are you looking for something? Sounds like the big compound movements are for you maybe with some variations.

HIIT for speed too.

Have you purchased your Norateen II yet? If not check out Alpha Male instead. Also check out the Biotest protein powders.

Maybe take Sunday off - given the amount of training you are looking at doing I think you’ll need a break! If you’ve got a workout in mind, post it up and your diet too.

Where in the world are you by the way? I take it you are playing Union?

hey… cheers for the reply

yea im in N.Ireland… but in uni in Glasgow where ill be training.

On Sunday im thinking of a 30 min swim or cycle for example to to get the muscles moving again.

Yea ordered it last nite so it will arrive in glasgow when i do on monday. will check out the Alpha Male stuff aswell for next month if the norateen doesnt work. any other recommendations for supplements?

Ive also forgot to post a problem i have too, the training we do on a tuesday nite is either a 1.5 hour fitness session or a 1.5 hours contact session, so i always wake up on wednesday with alot of bruises r alot of fatigue and weight training seems not so tempting.

and it also means that while im in the gym on a tuesday i have one eye on the training ill be doing that nite so i mite not do that big last set etc… are there any products are techniques to stop or reduce this pain?

Im thinking of:
Monday - Chest
Tuesday - Legs + fitness/contact session
Wednesday - Shoulders
Thursday - Back/core + 1 hour medium/light rugby training session with no contact.
Friday - Rest
Saturday - Match
Sunday - Light swim or cycle

Mainly going to be using dumbells and barbells. i like the old school work outs. keeping reps low but intense. something like 1x8 1x6 1x4 1x6 and then drop the weight and go untill failure. also thinking of doing sets in a 2 secs 1 secs way… eg… bench press - take the bar to my chest in 2 sec and up in 1 sec etc. ive heard this helps explosiveness.

looking to keep gym sessions under 2 hours but leaving knackered, covered in sweat and shaking… usually have 30 secs rest between set and then 2 min rest between exercise.

At them moment my diet is terrible… im usually not eating breakfast… having a couple of white bread sandwichs for lunch and then eating a feast at about 8pm. then i tend to snack from boredom all day but worse at night. id guess im consuming about 3000 calories a day. i dont snack on sugary things… its always things like mountains of toast, cookies… generally savory things.

did a few measurements…

15.5 inch biceps
29 inch thighs
40inch waist
50inch chest

these were all taken with the tape measure pulled tight.

im looking for somesort of structured routine, because i usually go into the gym with no plan and end up doing my whole body in each session. would also like tips on producing explosive power… i seem to be genarally as strong as all my opponnet but there more explosive and quicker to get the hit in… ive been compared to a diesel tractor :stuck_out_tongue:

also need alot of help with my diet… what should i eat? how often? when? is a protein shake a meal? etc etc

forgive my ignorance but… HITT???
Do you play rugby?

Any help is greatly appreciated…

just googled HIIT.

i used to do interval training on the bike keeping heartrate between 75-90%… for 30mins. usually covering 17km.

and also on the rowing machine i would do 30 secs of flat out rowing then 30 secs off for about 10 mins. with 10 ons and 10 offs.

havnt done either of these in a while… as im only averaging one gym session a week at the minute.

i suppose u could also count the fitness training on tuesday… either shuttle running or farkleks seem to be are coachs favorites. he also does alot of up downs while we r running… for example in the middle of the sprint on the farklek, he will blow his whistle and u have to hit the deck roll and then get up and finish the sprint… that wreaks…

uni doesnt start again untill the first week in feb so i have 3 weeks to get my training regime right, i also have 2 weeks off from matchs… so i was thinking should i be doing a cardio session on saturdays to make up for no match or do more weights??


some fotos for you to laugh at…


yes… i no i should prob have a shave.

First off, explosive sets are a good idea IMO. On your chest day get on the smith machine for some bench presses and power the bar up fast enough so it leaves your hands at the top of each rep.

I’m having a bit of trouble with figuring out a workout though. How much time do you have before or after your Tursday/Thursday rugby sessions? Even training in the morning I’m not sure about training legs on Tuesday - you are going to want to hit them real hard so you may not be able to give 100% in your rugby training later.

Maybe -

Monday - Legs (heavy)

Tuesday - Upper body (Chest, shoulders, upper back) + rugby training

Wednesday - Deads (Heavy), Hypers, Core

Thursday - Light legs & upper body (speed & higher reps) + Rugby training

Friday - Rest (but move - walk)

Saturday - Game on!

Sunday - Swim, walk, gentle cycle - anything light as long as you are moving.

Others round here will probably pull this to pieces but there you go! I welcome critisism - it’s how I learn too.

As far as other sups go, have a look at HOT-ROX extreme to help reduce some of the fat you are carrying. I appreciate that weight is a big factor for you but train & eat right and you’ll turn into 20 stone of muscle rather than 17 stone of muscle with 3 stone of fat.

All lifting should be done explosively. Worrying about controlling the tempo of lifting will only slow you down and make you weaker.

One heavy session and one speed session per week is probably what you need. I’d look at a heavy full body workout on Monday and a speed day on Thursday.

Outside the gym you should work on sprinting. Distances between 40 m and 400 m. You should probably do those 3 time a week, preferably the morning after your Rugby training. They don’t have to long sessions, maybe 20 minutes not counting warm up and cool down.

The other thing you should look at is Olympic lifts. Power cleans, power snatches and push presses to start with. Use them as warm ups on the heavy lift day and they can be the bulk of your speed day.

This should build strength and power.

Stu

It might be worth looking at some of Defranco’s stuff like Westside for Skinny Bastards (WS4SB). Although it’s based on bulking up, the way he sets out his weekly plans would be useful for you as they are geared towards people doing sports and take sprint work etc into account. Obviously, they are talking about American football but the reasoning would be the same for Rugby.

For example the DeFranco plan below is similar to what Renton & Stuward were suggesting for you, with heavy days and repetition days mixed in with rugby stuff:

MONDAY (A.M.) - MAX-EFFORT Upper Body lift
MONDAY (P.M.) - Sprint work, conditioning, GPP or skill training
TUESDAY - OFF or Restoration techniques
WEDNESDAY - Sprint work, conditioning, GPP or skill training
THURSDAY - REPETITION Upper Body lift
FRIDAY - Sprint work, conditioning, GPP or skill training
SATURDAY - Lower Body lift
SUNDAY - OFF or Restoration techniques

i wud wanna do alot more actual leg weights prob because of my position… im a prop. so i take all the pressure of 16 men pushing on each other… relating to this… what kinda things can i do to strenthen my neck?

i am in first year at uni so i have alot of free time so i can train anytime day or night… the gym closes at 11 thou and training ends at 9 but in a completly different end of town so after training prob wudnt be feasible.

do HOT - ROX Extreme work… and would it be able to be stacked with Norateen 2 and promax? or wud they cause adverse side effects? i have used thermobol from maximuscle before and didnt really notice a big difference…

i wud also like to do stuff like parachute work… running with the parachute behind ou then dropping ti and sprinting… but as i cant afford one i was wondering are there any other ways of doing something similiar that costs nothing… a sandbag comes to mind??

in addition to the parachute work i wud also be able to push a car about, i was reading the old school training techniques on this site. should i do this?

im assuming heavy lifting is 2-3 reps and 5 sets? and repetitions… is 12-15 reps and 3 sets?

doea anyone no any other way apart from back extensions and dead lift to strengthen ur lower back using weights… im looking something that can be done explosivaly…

Is there any reason not to do weights more than once in a day… like morning and night?

cheers once again for the replys. you’s have gave me things to think about and some new ideas… ill rejig my plan and post it tomorrow and a sample diet. to see what you think and then its ll GO on Monday. Looking forward to it! :smiley:

For your back I think squats done might help a bit but they should be done regardless lol. I also play rugby as a prop so this info helps me too lol.

[quote]thosebananas wrote:
i wud wanna do alot more actual leg weights prob because of my position… im a prop. so i take all the pressure of 16 men pushing on each other… relating to this… what kinda things can i do to strenthen my neck? [/quote]

Check exrx.net for exercise options.

[quote]thosebananas wrote:
i am in first year at uni so i have alot of free time so i can train anytime day or night… the gym closes at 11 thou and training ends at 9 but in a completly different end of town so after training prob wudnt be feasible.

do HOT - ROX extreme work… and would it be able to be stacked with Norateen 2 and promax? or wud they cause adverse side effects? i have used thermobol from maximuscle before and didnt really notice a big difference…[/quote]

I thought you didn’t want to lose weight. Isn’t HOT-ROX for weight loss? I’m not expert on supps.

[quote]thosebananas wrote:

i wud also like to do stuff like parachute work… running with the parachute behind ou then dropping ti and sprinting… but as i cant afford one i was wondering are there any other ways of doing something similiar that costs nothing… a sandbag comes to mind??

in addition to the parachute work i wud also be able to push a car about, i was reading the old school training techniques on this site. should i do this?[/quote]

There are lots GPP type things you can do. Sled dragging, farmers walks, hill sprints, car pushing, sand bags. Diesel Crew has lots of ideas. http://www.dieselcrew.com/

[quote]thosebananas wrote:
im assuming heavy lifting is 2-3 reps and 5 sets? and repetitions… is 12-15 reps and 3 sets? [/quote]

There is a lot of carryover between power, strength, hypertrophy and endurance. Attached is a scan of a table that lays it out. It’s from “Optimizing Strength Training” by Kraemer and Fleck.

[quote]thosebananas wrote:
doea anyone no any other way apart from back extensions and dead lift to strengthen ur lower back using weights… im looking something that can be done explosivaly…[/quote]

Power Cleans, Power Snatches

[quote]thosebananas wrote:

Is there any reason not to do weights more than once in a day… like morning and night?[/quote]

If the intesity is low enough, you can work out more frequent. This might be an option for GPP or learning power technigues but remember that muscle is built in recovery. The more intense your workouts, the more recovery you need. Make sure you get proper nutrition and lots of sleep.

[quote]thosebananas wrote:

cheers once again for the replys. you’s have gave me things to think about and some new ideas… ill rejig my plan and post it tomorrow and a sample diet. to see what you think and then its ll GO on Monday. Looking forward to it! :smiley:

[/quote]

I get the general sense from your posts that you are lacking in power more than strength. If you focus on power, there will be a good carry over to strength anyway.

Stu

thanks for the reply… i have a lot to look through now… cheers

Yea im generaly stonger in the gym than all my team mates but they are more powerful than me on the pitch.

as renton said… i HOT-ROX are for losing fat… id rather be 18 stone of muscle than 16 stone of muscle plus 4 stone of fat… im still looking into the HOT-ROX. was wondering if anyone on here has used them for a similiar purpose as me and what the outcome was??

The scanned image has helped me alot… now i no what to aim for in the gymwhen sites say a endurance session or strength etc…

ive also just found out my university have a power lifting team who train on mondays and wednesdays in the same gym as me… i might talk to them and see what sort of stuff there doing aswell…

cheers for the posts so far.

ill post how monday went… still strugging with my diet… what sorta things should i be eating and how often?

Scott

I agree that having more muscle and less fat will be to your benefit. It will certainly help in making you faster and more powerful. Check this site for Berardi’s “7 habits” article. There are also some good articles on “carb cycling”. I think the powerlifting would be very helpful to you. You may want to see if there is a weightlifting club too. The names are misleading. Powerlifting is more about strength, weightlifting is more about power.

hey… i read the article about carb cycling… it seems to maintain my body weight i have to eat 4200 calories… i dont see how this is true as i dont think im eating that at the minute yet im staying the same weight… :S

read the thing about 7 habits too… both great articles and a lot of help. first session back is tomoz at 10am.

im travelling all day tomorrow so my diet may not be as good in the morning before training as i will either not eat or will eat some junk… mite wait till i am in glasgow at 9am and ave a protein shake and some fruit then hit the weights hard… im gonna do a heavy legs session tomorrow, and take it from there.

Im going to try HOT-ROX, Norateen 2 and Promax for a month and see how it goes… would like to be feeling a bit “more solid” and be lifting bigger in a month.

Eating every 3 hours sounds like great fun but it will be tough at the start to eat well… what is the best way to prepare eggs? and chicken?

does a protein shake like promax count as a meal? and when is the best time to take protein, i can remeber reading somewhere its best absorbed or something within 15 mins of finishing ur session??

cheers again

Scott

hey… i read the article about carb cycling… it seems to maintain my body weight i have to eat 4200 calories… i dont see how this is true as i dont think im eating that at the minute yet im staying the same weight… :S

read the thing about 7 habits too… both great articles and a lot of help. first session back is tomoz at 10am.

im travelling all day tomorrow so my diet may not be as good in the morning before training as i will either not eat or will eat some junk… mite wait till i am in glasgow at 9am and ave a protein shake and some fruit then hit the weights hard… im gonna do a heavy legs session tomorrow, and take it from there.

Im going to try HOT-ROX, Norateen 2 and Promax for a month and see how it goes… would like to be feeling a bit “more solid” and be lifting bigger in a month.

Eating every 3 hours sounds like great fun but it will be tough at the start to eat well… what is the best way to prepare eggs? and chicken?

does a protein shake like promax count as a meal? and when is the best time to take protein, i can remeber reading somewhere its best absorbed or something within 15 mins of finishing ur session??

cheers again

Scott

[quote]thosebananas wrote:
Eating every 3 hours sounds like great fun but it will be tough at the start to eat well… what is the best way to prepare eggs? and chicken?

does a protein shake like promax count as a meal? and when is the best time to take protein, i can remeber reading somewhere its best absorbed or something within 15 mins of finishing ur session??

cheers again

Scott[/quote]

Yeah a shake counts as a ‘meal’ when eating every 3 hours. One of the best times to take it is straight after your training, at least within the first hour but ideally as soon as you can. You want this shake to include some simple carbs too, something like maltodextrin which helps the uptake of the protein. Another good time to take is before bed, when you should try and include some slower release protein like casein or add cottage cheese to your shake.

just finished my first week of training and dieting…

been pretty disapointed in my lifts… i seem to have lost more muslce than i thought i had.

i started benching 30kg dumbells went up to 35s. then went on to the bar… started at 70 and went up to 80. struggled a lot with my last set of 80. did sets of 8 on the dumbells and sets of 6 on the bar. i used to struggle on my last set of 120s.

i started squating 100 went to 130 then 150kg at sets of 8. then went back down to 100 and did a set of 20. lost some weight here too.

i tryed to deadlift 150kg and failed miserably, so i had to go back down to 130kg. i used to do 4 sets of 180. pretty disappointed with this aswell.

overall disappointed with my lifts but this has motivated me more to diet and hit the gym. getting angry with myself has made me ultra strict on my diet.

i treated this week in the gym as a week to find out where i stand, what im lifting at etc etc… have recorded it all in an excel spreadsheet so i can track any progress.

my diet has been going pretty good i think. im basically living by a few rules:
protein shake and 2 HRX as soon as i wake up

then i eat a small high protein low(if any) carb meal every 3 hours.

if eating carbs they have to be from wholemeal food and never white carbs.

2 multivitamins a day

HRX 6 hours after my first ones.

then another protein shake made with milk before bed.

suprisingly i am having trouble eating… im not feeling hungrey at all and flat mates have had to make me eat on 2 occassions… i am assuming this is the HRX working?

overall i think i have lost a bit of weight, clothes feel looser but i havnt found scaled yet to weight myself.

i am toying with the idea of quiting rugby for therest of the year, the level im playing is low and i want to play higher… i am thinking of focusing on weights and fitness and aim for next september to be in top shape. what do you all think?

can anyone see if i cam doing nething wrong here? or have any suggestions to improve my regime?

meant to add in… the norateen hasnt arived yet. so im not on it yet. just protein, multivit and HRX

cheers

SCott

also meant to add in… i landed a job as a PR. its a 2 mile walk to work and 2 miles back. and the job is basically walking about for 3 hours handing out flyers… so i think every shift im at least walking 6-8 miles. been working everyday. will this be burning many calories…? not looking forward to tomorrows shift as i did legs today and shall be in pain tomoz!

Cheers

Scott