T Nation

Back Squat Form Check (Buttwink)

I can’t fix this buttwink. I bought Oly shoes because I thought they would help… They didn’t. I’ve been doing serious stretching before every workout and yoga a few times a week. Any advice? Also, what other problems do you notice with my squat?

your knees move sideways as you go down. You might consider having a little bit wider stance

The butt wink tends to dissipate with time, in my experience. Just keep squatting and the pattern should work itself out naturally. I don’t think that small tuck under is going to injure you. Other than that, I would say focus on keeping your chest up, especially as you fatigue. It’s not too bad though.

Butt wink isn’t just a mobility issue, it’s also a control issue.
Learn how to rotate your hips anteriorly, and focus on this when you go into the hole.
Keep working on your mobility. But also focus on your control.

[quote]NikH wrote:
your knees move sideways as you go down. You might consider having a little bit wider stance[/quote]
I widened my stance an inch and my knees didn’t like it. I had to point my toes out a little more and that really didn’t feel right. Do you think I could keep my stance like this but start strengthening outer IT bands/abductors? I feel like this would help me drive my knees out. What do you think?

Also–I squatted 225 today and felt a LOT of joint pain. I could only complete the first set and failed miserably on the others (attempted the 2nd set 6 times before giving up). The joint pain at the bottom of the squat was the reason I wasn’t able to complete the lift. As you can see in the video, I bounce out of the squat at the bottom. This has always worked for me but I am just beginning to get pain. I’m not being a little bitch about the pain, but if this is going to turn into a serious injury then I want to figure out what I’m doing wrong. Someone told me to take joint health supplements… Can anyone offer advice on joint pain in the knees?

[quote]bigblockford wrote:

[quote]NikH wrote:
your knees move sideways as you go down. You might consider having a little bit wider stance[/quote]
I widened my stance an inch and my knees didn’t like it. I had to point my toes out a little more and that really didn’t feel right. Do you think I could keep my stance like this but start strengthening outer IT bands/abductors? I feel like this would help me drive my knees out. What do you think?

Also–I squatted 225 today and felt a LOT of joint pain. I could only complete the first set and failed miserably on the others (attempted the 2nd set 6 times before giving up). The joint pain at the bottom of the squat was the reason I wasn’t able to complete the lift. As you can see in the video, I bounce out of the squat at the bottom. This has always worked for me but I am just beginning to get pain. I’m not being a little bitch about the pain, but if this is going to turn into a serious injury then I want to figure out what I’m doing wrong. Someone told me to take joint health supplements… Can anyone offer advice on joint pain in the knees?[/quote]

Were your knees painful with wider stance and toes more out? Were you buttwinking still?
I think you are buttwinking because you have weaker glutes, and you are more quad dominant; that’s why your knees move inward when you go up and you prefer a closer stance.

You should lessen the weight and get your form in control first - this is how injuries happen.

I am saying you are quad dominant because when you look at the video at your right knee, it moves inward when you are struggling with the weight. Try to practise more with lightweights to find a form and control that goes smoothly without buttwinks and pain.

[quote]NikH wrote:

[quote]bigblockford wrote:

[quote]NikH wrote:
your knees move sideways as you go down. You might consider having a little bit wider stance[/quote]
I widened my stance an inch and my knees didn’t like it. I had to point my toes out a little more and that really didn’t feel right. Do you think I could keep my stance like this but start strengthening outer IT bands/abductors? I feel like this would help me drive my knees out. What do you think?

Also–I squatted 225 today and felt a LOT of joint pain. I could only complete the first set and failed miserably on the others (attempted the 2nd set 6 times before giving up). The joint pain at the bottom of the squat was the reason I wasn’t able to complete the lift. As you can see in the video, I bounce out of the squat at the bottom. This has always worked for me but I am just beginning to get pain. I’m not being a little bitch about the pain, but if this is going to turn into a serious injury then I want to figure out what I’m doing wrong. Someone told me to take joint health supplements… Can anyone offer advice on joint pain in the knees?[/quote]

Were your knees painful with wider stance and toes more out? Were you buttwinking still?
I think you are buttwinking because you have weaker glutes, and you are more quad dominant; that’s why your knees move inward when you go up and you prefer a closer stance.

You should lessen the weight and get your form in control first - this is how injuries happen.[/quote]
I figured out what the problem was. I was bouncing out too hard. I literally hit the bottom at like 10 mph and bounce the hell out. I’m going to stop doing that. I’ll get low as hell, but I will control my speed on the way down. I’m gonna test this out on Friday and report back.

you’re right about bouncing too hard or more like dropping like a stone. there is a balance between the descent and the ascent and most olympic lifters use the bounce to varying degrees. you might also want to chuck in some variations to help with feeling the position/proprioception etc, eg overhead squat with a shoulder width grip, pause squats (even on overheads!). I agree with an earlier comment that your stance could probably do with being a touch wider and you may need to turn your toes out slightly too - any changes will take a few sessions or so at the very least to get used to.

Here’s just two points I noticed by watching you squat:

Squat Technique - I saw, in this forum, that you tried to go wider but you did not like that; it may be that you should practice with a slightly wider stance. This will create a better hole to sink into. I almost commented on your knees being buckled in once you were in the hole, but they looked great watching the video @ 3:34. However, on your ascent, you were buckling the knees in, which may be an effect of rounding the hip (or vice versa). Again, squat is all about feel, so get a feel for it.

Joint Pain - I would start utilizing knee wraps if you’re going that heavy on a high bar squat. If you’re looking to push more weight, get into a low bar squat and shoot the hips back. Oly lifters typically go 85 - 95% of their 1RM, for a 1 RM (redundant, I know…). I find it much safer to attempt heavy weight with a low bar back squat, until your joints are strong enough to attempt a 20lb. jump like you did for the high bar, oly squat. Don’t worry about ATG at heavy weight like 225lbs. Just get slightly below parallel to attempt a heavier weight, and go ATG when you’re repping between 75 - 85% of your 1 RM.

I do not miss the CRC at all. I hate how we only had two squat racks in that damn gym. When you graduate, be sure to purchase your own squat rack so you do not have to deal with the bicep boys who take up the racks. Go Jackets!

it’s up to you regarding knee wraps but unless you are talking powerlifting wraps etc they do very little in my opinion beyond the psychological. if you do wrap up like a powerlifter it will put more pressure on the joint, neoprene will help circulation/warmth a bit. if you are lifting for olympic purposes then low bar is not a good substitute and has less carry over to other movements too. likewise you do need to squat ATG for olympic purposes. re % it all depends on the type of programme you use, the rule of thumb is 1-5 reps, 85-100%, a lot of people periodize and some train to daily max etc.

here’s an example of an elite lifter using the bounce:

2nd attempt with link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYF3vBmqif8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

btw you might also want to try squatting down with a round back then straightening up at the bottom and standing up, to activate all the necessary muscles/feel the position etc - only a very light weight eg empty bar/40 kg AKA a contraindicated exercise, some people do this with good mornings or RDLs to aid position and the ability to feel and correct flexion

Last attempt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYF3vBmqif8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

if I’m still too inept, try looking up Kendrick Farris squat on YouTube :slight_smile:

[quote]SchrodingerRaw wrote:
Here’s just two points I noticed by watching you squat:

Squat Technique - I saw, in this forum, that you tried to go wider but you did not like that; it may be that you should practice with a slightly wider stance. This will create a better hole to sink into. I almost commented on your knees being buckled in once you were in the hole, but they looked great watching the video @ 3:34. However, on your ascent, you were buckling the knees in, which may be an effect of rounding the hip (or vice versa). Again, squat is all about feel, so get a feel for it.

Joint Pain - I would start utilizing knee wraps if you’re going that heavy on a high bar squat. If you’re looking to push more weight, get into a low bar squat and shoot the hips back. Oly lifters typically go 85 - 95% of their 1RM, for a 1 RM (redundant, I know…). I find it much safer to attempt heavy weight with a low bar back squat, until your joints are strong enough to attempt a 20lb. jump like you did for the high bar, oly squat. Don’t worry about ATG at heavy weight like 225lbs. Just get slightly below parallel to attempt a heavier weight, and go ATG when you’re repping between 75 - 85% of your 1 RM.

I do not miss the CRC at all. I hate how we only had two squat racks in that damn gym. When you graduate, be sure to purchase your own squat rack so you do not have to deal with the bicep boys who take up the racks. Go Jackets![/quote]
didn’t expect to find a fellow yellow jacket on here! and thanks for the advice. I widened my stance and descended more slowly. Using my old form, I failed on 225x5x5. With my new form, I only go 3 or 4 inches below parallel but I got 245x5x5

didn’t want to start a new thread

any comments on this?

[quote]bigblockford wrote:
I can’t fix this buttwink. I bought Oly shoes because I thought they would help… They didn’t. I’ve been doing serious stretching before every workout and yoga a few times a week. Any advice? Also, what other problems do you notice with my squat?

Think about breaking the bar over your back, not just gripping really hard, you can be tighter in your upper back and abs I think.

For your abs, imagine your abs are like a scuba tank. Full of compressed air on the inside, hard as a rock on the outside. Try to imagine filling your gut with air so it’s like a bomb ready to explode and your abs are all that’s controlling it.

Some other things with your legs, you spread the floor on the ascent to try to keep your knees from caving in. Also, flex the crap out of your groin, for me I need to think about this before descent, this might help you understand why people ask for a wide stance, once you get your groin involved in the squat you will start to see weight move fast, and your stance widen, keep that in mind. Hope it helps, try to take little pieces and keep them in your mind. Breaking the bar over your back will get you tired faster, but also hopefully make you more explosive from the bottom and keep your posture right so you don’t grind mid way up.