Back Routine Opinions?

Oh, and bigger muscle groups can handle more sets. Specifically the back. The back has so many different muscles involved and angles that it’s really difficult to overwork it, as long as you don’t also have to do legs shortly after your back day :). So if there’s one muscle group I’d go super high volume on, it’d be the back. But I don’t use a body part split so it would be counter productive for me to waste that much energy and then be incapacitated with soreness when I have to squat and pull later.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

Also, and I admit my bias, but WHY do people put deadlifts on back day??

.[/quote]

This is why I asked him to post his week’s workout schedule I believe deadlifting on back day should be avoided if possible.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Oh, and bigger muscle groups can handle more sets. Specifically the back. The back has so many different muscles involved and angles that it’s really difficult to overwork it, as long as you don’t also have to do legs shortly after your back day :). So if there’s one muscle group I’d go super high volume on, it’d be the back. But I don’t use a body part split so it would be counter productive for me to waste that much energy and then be incapacitated with soreness when I have to squat and pull later.[/quote]

Aragorn, what’s your split like? I’m curious because I thought that you train for powerlifting purposes. Plus, aren’t you pulling about 700 about now?

My workout schedule is kind of fucked right now.

Tuesday: Legs

Squats ( heavy) 3-5 reps 5 sets

leg press ( heavy) 3-5 reps 3 sets

leg curls ( heavy) 3-5 reps 5 sets

donkey calf-raises 7-8 reps 5 sets

Wednesday: Shoulders

Military press 3-5 reps 5 sets

side lateral raises 3-5 reps 3 sets

front raises 3-5 reps 3 sets

Saturday: BACK ( see first post)

Sunday: Chest, triceps

flat bench press 3-5 reps 4 sets

incline dumbell press 3-5 reps 3 sets

peck deck 3-5 reps 3 sets

weighted dips 3-5 reps 5 sets

tricep push downs 3-5 reps 3 sets

I will up the volume on back day and chest day ( more volume for chest) and i know my routine order is not the best. Kind of fell into that order. I can handle an increase in volume definitely, i am not new to the iron game, just not been 100% dedicated or knowledgeable in the past. Will increase to 25 sets total for chest, 25 sets total for back, and increase shoulder work to 15 sets. Legs i feel i do enough. I will start working out my biceps separately too, on shoulder day. Eventually i want to have split of chest, legs, shoulders & arms, back.

Don’t mean to hijack but Aragorn and Jamfly why are you guys against deadlifting on back day?

Do your legs get sore or something and then you can’t do your leg workout? IDK about you but when I deadlift, my legs don’t get sore so it isn’t an issue. I have no problem keeping the intensity high for the rest of my back workout if I DL on the same day either. Just curious as to where you guys are coming from?

Waylanderxx, you do a lot of volume, but you also use AAS correct? Hopefully, that’s not seen as a knock, but an important aspect of your overall regimen.

As said 12-20 sets should be sufficient.

[quote]Xphobicas wrote:
I want to build a great back and wanted input on my exercise choices etc.

My current routine:

Deadlifts (3-4 REPS, HEAVY)X 4

CHIN UPS (7-8 REPS) X 3 (AS MANY AS I CAN DO, HAVE YET TO ADD WEIGHT BEYOND MY OWN BODY WEIGHT)

BENT OVER ROWS (3-5 REPS, HEAVY) X 3

LAT PULL DOWNS (3-5 REPS, HEAVY) X 3

SHRUGS (3-5 REPS, HEAVY) X 4

Anything i should change? Thanks for any feedback.[/quote]

I’m not a fan of this back workout for a few reasons. First, there is not enough of an emphasis on increasing width through building the lats. A well built back has to be wide, and if you want that classic V taper, body weight chins and heavy lat pull downs will never get you there.

Since you claim your doing lat pull downs ‘heavy’, I seriously doubt that you doing the motion correctly; chances are you’re using alot of body english and stimulating the lats to only a small degree.

If you have a weak back and can’t do 10 bodyweight pullups, stick with the lat pulldowns for the short term to build up some strength. I think lat pulldowns are just a pussy version of wide-grip pulldowns.

Don’t get me wrong, they’re good to throw in every now and then, but if your going to work hard and want to get big, do it right and get to the point where you can start knocking out sets of wide-grip pullups.

Second, I don’t think the low rep ranges are the best for where you’re body is at. It sounds like you’re just getting back into lifting, and if so you should focus on building a solid foundation before jumping right into heavy training. I think you should bump up your rep ranges to 8-12 for a few months.

When people typically begin working their back, it’s difficult to fully activate the back muscles. Use some time to increase the mind-muscle connection with your back. Focus on contracting and feeling the burn in your back while your working it, and after a month or two re-assess where your at. I know it took me a couple months to learn to move the weight with my back muscles instead of my arms and and lower back.

Third, I personally don’t think deadlifting at the beginning of back day is a good idea. Plenty of people prefer to start with deads, possibly because you have more strength and can move more weight, and plenty of people have success with it.

I’m not one of them. If you want to build a great back, you can’t ego lift so you shouldn’t care if you have to take 25 pounds off your normal dead when doing them at the end of your workout.

In my experience, deading at the beginning of the workout was too taxing for me to be able to fully attack the rest of the workout. My lower back would be fatigued from the get go, costing me reps on bent rows and 1 arm rows that i would normally be able to get.

If you want to get the most results out of your entire back workout, dead last. Dead last and go out with a bang.

Here’s a back workout I would suggest you start with. It’s a good balance between of exercises that target width and thickness. After two solid months, re-assess where you are and up the volume and/or reduce the reps accordingly:

Wide-grip pullups: 8-10 x 4
T-Bar rows: 8-12 x 4
1 arm DB rows: 8-12 x 3
Superset: Lat pulldown 10 x 3 & High cable straight arm pulldowns 10 x 3
Deadlift: 10-12 x 1, 8-10 x 2 , 5-6 x 1

[quote]Trenchant wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Oh, and bigger muscle groups can handle more sets. Specifically the back. The back has so many different muscles involved and angles that it’s really difficult to overwork it, as long as you don’t also have to do legs shortly after your back day :).

So if there’s one muscle group I’d go super high volume on, it’d be the back. But I don’t use a body part split so it would be counter productive for me to waste that much energy and then be incapacitated with soreness when I have to squat and pull later.

Aragorn, what’s your split like? I’m curious because I thought that you train for powerlifting purposes. Plus, aren’t you pulling about 700 about now?
[/quote]

Oh God, I wish!! No, I’m aiming for 650 by the end of the year. It’ll be raw/belt only though, so if I end up getting a suit I’m going to run for 700+. I need to bring my pathetic squat up, so I’m not prioritizing my DL any more. It’s in a holding pattern for now.

Split is in flux right now–I work legs 2x a week, just not sure HOW I’m going to structure those workouts (whether 1 DL/1 squat, or squatting and DLing each 2x week or what). Also, my 2nd leg day is sometimes Thursday if I drive up to squat with the S.O.S. guys. But here goes:

Mon–Legs, ME
Tues–Back/rear delt
Wed–Bench, high end/triceps, shoulders
Thurs-- OFF
Fri—Legs, DE or ME
Sat–Bench, raw low end, shoulders.

I work my back on both bench days as well. Used to only have a simple WSB 4 day split, but I felt like I wasn’t getting enough bench work in–getting back work at the expense of bench assistance. So I switched recently, and have been pretty happy with the results.

[b]Legs[/b]–exercises are in flux right now. Don’t feel like having a plan nailed down just yet, so I just work hard while I think about the plan

ME DL or squat variation-- 3RM or 1 RM
assistance dl or squat variation 3-5 sets x 3-8 reps
Pull-throughs 4-5 sets x 8-12
Back raises or natural GHRs 3-5 sets x 8-15
abs 3-4 sets x 10

[b]Back[/b]–concentrating on rows, because lat work is done with bench days. Needless to say, I don’t do bent rows after yesterday’s session.

still, sometimes I do chins first on this day
Kroc rows 5+ sets
seated cable rows 5 sets x 10-12
Shrugs or other row 3-4 sets x 10
rear delt 3-4 sets x 10

[b]Bench–lockout[/b]

Board press – work up to rep max
rev. band bench or narrow incline bench 3-5 sets x 3-8 reps
dumbbell shoulder press 3-4 x 8
A1) lat pulldowns 3-4 x 8-12
A2) tricep pushdowns or skullcrushers 3-4 x 8-12
eagle pulldowns 2-4 x 8-12

Leg day #2

Heavy squat or pull, or squat/pull against bands/chains
optional assistance movement 3-4 sets x whatever
GHRs 3-4 sets x 8-10
Reverse Hypers 3-4 sets x 8-12
abs 3-4 sets x 10

[b]Bench–raw/low end[/b]

raw bench up to 5 RM, or 3-4 x 8
decline dumbbell press 3-4 x 8-10
A1) lateral raises 3-4 x 8-10
A2) skullcrushers, pushdowns, or Tate press 3-4 x 8-10
A3) lat pulldowns --different grips from Wed. 5 x 10

I train for powerlifting yeah, but this split WILL put size on you. You’re training the back in some capacity 5 times a week–either in support mode (squats/lats)or in actual movements (DL, GMs, back day).

And there’s plenty of volume for the rest of the body.

[quote]Big Aristotle wrote:
Xphobicas wrote:
I want to build a great back and wanted input on my exercise choices etc.

My current routine:

Deadlifts (3-4 REPS, HEAVY)X 4

CHIN UPS (7-8 REPS) X 3 (AS MANY AS I CAN DO, HAVE YET TO ADD WEIGHT BEYOND MY OWN BODY WEIGHT)

BENT OVER ROWS (3-5 REPS, HEAVY) X 3

LAT PULL DOWNS (3-5 REPS, HEAVY) X 3

SHRUGS (3-5 REPS, HEAVY) X 4

Anything i should change? Thanks for any feedback.

I’m not a fan of this back workout for a few reasons. First, there is not enough of an emphasis on increasing width through building the lats. A well built back has to be wide, and if you want that classic V taper, body weight chins and heavy lat pull downs will never get you there.

Since you claim your doing lat pull downs ‘heavy’, I seriously doubt that you doing the motion correctly; chances are you’re using alot of body english and stimulating the lats to only a small degree.

If you have a weak back and can’t do 10 bodyweight pullups, stick with the lat pulldowns for the short term to build up some strength. I think lat pulldowns are just a pussy version of wide-grip pulldowns.

Don’t get me wrong, they’re good to throw in every now and then, but if your going to work hard and want to get big, do it right and get to the point where you can start knocking out sets of wide-grip pullups.

Second, I don’t think the low rep ranges are the best for where you’re body is at. It sounds like you’re just getting back into lifting, and if so you should focus on building a solid foundation before jumping right into heavy training. I think you should bump up your rep ranges to 8-12 for a few months.

When people typically begin working their back, it’s difficult to fully activate the back muscles. Use some time to increase the mind-muscle connection with your back.

Focus on contracting and feeling the burn in your back while your working it, and after a month or two re-assess where your at. I know it took me a couple months to learn to move the weight with my back muscles instead of my arms and and lower back.

Third, I personally don’t think deadlifting at the beginning of back day is a good idea. Plenty of people prefer to start with deads, possibly because you have more strength and can move more weight, and plenty of people have success with it.

I’m not one of them. If you want to build a great back, you can’t ego lift so you shouldn’t care if you have to take 25 pounds off your normal dead when doing them at the end of your workout.

In my experience, deading at the beginning of the workout was too taxing for me to be able to fully attack the rest of the workout. My lower back would be fatigued from the get go, costing me reps on bent rows and 1 arm rows that i would normally be able to get.

If you want to get the most results out of your entire back workout, dead last. Dead last and go out with a bang.

Here’s a back workout I would suggest you start with. It’s a good balance between of exercises that target width and thickness. After two solid months, re-assess where you are and up the volume and/or reduce the reps accordingly:

Wide-grip pullups: 8-10 x 4
T-Bar rows: 8-12 x 4
1 arm DB rows: 8-12 x 3
Superset: Lat pulldown 10 x 3 & High cable straight arm pulldowns 10 x 3
Deadlift: 10-12 x 1, 8-10 x 2 , 5-6 x 1
[/quote]

I have the v-tapered look already, mostly i want to build back thickness. In a t-mag article i read a few months ago, it stated that chin ups were a better back builder and work the back more than pull ups. I’ll get rid of the lat pull downs and increase the reps (outside of the deadlift).

What is aas? Roids?

My only supplements are a multivitamin, creatine ester ethyl pills, and lean gainer shakes. I eat 5-6 meals a day and eat very clean for the most part. My only cheat meals i guess would be the low fat chicken fingers i make once or twice a week with salad. 4 grams of fat for 3, and I usually eat 8 of them after a taxing work out.

I also eat 250 grams of low-fat cottage cheese before i go to bed, and i eat natural peanut butter sometimes as well.

Wow, thanks Aragorn for going into that much detail. That just made this thread one of the best “rate my programs” in a while. That bad boy is getting saved onto my computer.

Xphobicas, yes AAS is “chemical assistance.” The only difference is that you actually have to work harder with this assistance to reap the potential benefits.

And I doubt that you have the v-tapered look already when you’re only 173lbs. I could be wrong and you could have a phenominal build and be the exception like 1morerep. But I doubt it.

[quote]Trenchant wrote:
Wow, thanks Aragorn for going into that much detail. That just made this thread one of the best “rate my programs” in a while. That bad boy is getting saved onto my computer.

Xphobicas, yes AAS is “chemical assistance.” The only difference is that you actually have to work harder with this assistance to reap the potential benefits.

And I doubt that you have the v-tapered look already when you’re only 173lbs. I could be wrong and you could have a phenominal build and be the exception like 1morerep. But I doubt it.[/quote]

I am 183 lbs, 5ft9, and i do have the v shape already. The lats could be thicker though, but i have no issue with the width of my ‘wings’.

[quote]Trenchant wrote:
Wow, thanks Aragorn for going into that much detail. That just made this thread one of the best “rate my programs” in a while. That bad boy is getting saved onto my computer.

Xphobicas, yes AAS is “chemical assistance.” The only difference is that you actually have to work harder with this assistance to reap the potential benefits.

And I doubt that you have the v-tapered look already when you’re only 173lbs. I could be wrong and you could have a phenominal build and be the exception like 1morerep. But I doubt it.[/quote]

lol. Well I’m glad you liked it! This is a GREAT split IMO, and I’m going to keep it for a long time. It’s got everything covered really well, except for arms. And honestly, I don’t really care, and I don’t think it’s a big deal–with the amount of back work that’s scheduled, biceps kinda get hit indirectly.

And if you want to hit arms better, you can just supinate your grip for rows and pull-downs/chins. That being said, I’ll probably switch things up and add bicep work later this year if they’re bothering me.

Of course, I have no biceps :). But my back is fucking solid. I’m not the biggest guy and I pretty much hate ringing my own bell, but I’m damn proud of my back and my hamstrings. Anyway if I wanted to I’d cut the rows back a bit and do biceps then and maybe on a bench day or second leg day Instead of lat work.

Oh, another tip–if you warm-up with a 1-2 sets of lat work prior to squats it can help keep your back tighter. Nothing at all heavy, but I’ve used that on occasion to move blood through and “feel” them more.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Don’t mean to hijack but Aragorn and Jamfly why are you guys against deadlifting on back day?

Do your legs get sore or something and then you can’t do your leg workout? IDK about you but when I deadlift, my legs don’t get sore so it isn’t an issue. I have no problem keeping the intensity high for the rest of my back workout if I DL on the same day either. Just curious as to where you guys are coming from?[/quote]

I’m also curious. I do deads on back day or the day after. My back is always sore after deads so a back workout anytime after would be fruitless.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Don’t mean to hijack but Aragorn and Jamfly why are you guys against deadlifting on back day?

Do your legs get sore or something and then you can’t do your leg workout? IDK about you but when I deadlift, my legs don’t get sore so it isn’t an issue. I have no problem keeping the intensity high for the rest of my back workout if I DL on the same day either. Just curious as to where you guys are coming from?[/quote]

Well, after heavy deadlifts, I am extremely drained. The strain it puts on my system is huge, and I would find it extremely difficult to be able to then go ahead and do high rep Kroc rows with 140 lb dumbbells afterwards–not to mention my low back would be so pumped and tired I’d never be able to support heavy T-bar rows. It gets pretty hurt as is, doing T-bar rows the day after my 1st leg day when it’s still fatigued.

Frankly, after deadlifts all I want to do is curl up into a ball and die. I wouldn’t have energy for 4 different heavy duty back exercises and 16 sets afterwards. 'Bout all I can stomach is a couple isolation exercises for my legs after that.

Additionally, I think your deadlifts will suffer if you do them on your back days AFTER your leg days. Especially if you go heavy and high volume. And particularly if you use a body part split; my legs would be so blasted it would completely limit the poundage on my deadlifts, and hence the overload on the back.

Besides, I often see the following bp split— legs, back/bi, rest, chest, shoulders. If I tried to deadlift the day after my leg day I would die. And I think if you CAN deadlift heavy the day after leg day, you didn’t do very much. I could see it if your back day was thursday and your leg day was monday, but then refer to the first paragraph above for my reasons against.

I really like to train back and have done it really hard since some years.

I agree mostly with Aragorn’s “no deadlift on back”. Xphobicas you should assess yourself to see if you’re really getting maximum stimulation from your routine. You should pay attention if your back really overtakes on the movement; if your legs and butt do, this won’t work for the back. Deadlifts are a disadvantage 'coz they drain you very early in the training session and you’ll never be able to perform the following exercises with good intensity (in case you did the DL’s well). The same goes if you finish with the deadlifts, the load will be ridiculous to give opimal stimulation compared to what you could have done if you put them first.

You should definitely increase the reps on every exercise, and do around 12 heavy sets for all your back. The back is a big and resistant muscle, very unlikely to overtrain (where did you hear it was that easy to overtrain?) This includes spreading your sets and exercises between pulls (generally width) and rows (thickness). I don’t recommend staying in the same rep range all the workout; I suggest you go 8-12 on all exercises, starting around 7 reps on your first exercise, and the last one on 12. This is because you won’t be able to maintain the same strength during the session, making less effective muscle stimulation on the same rep range.

The worst of your program were thre shrugs. You’re really wasting your time on this one. This exercise has a shorter range of motion than most others. This means TUT (time under tension) per repetition will be shorter too. What are you taking on each set of shrugs? at most I would say 10 seconds. For hypertrophy you need about 60 seconds per set for full stimulation.

I’m not saying you shouldn’t do it, shrugs can be excellent for trap stimulation, neither you should be counting how much miliseconds you take on each rep, never count the reps, but it’s just common sense. What should you do? I suggest you increase the reps. I even double the reps for hypertrophy range on calves, forearms and traps (this means 15-25 instead of 8-12). You can say- “I’ll be performing them with 2 pound plates on that rep range”, that won’t happen because the shorter range of motion.

Finally, you seem to be focusing more on loads than stimulation judging by the rep ranges. I have lowered my row and my pulldown weights, and when that happened my back turned to it’s best muscularity. Again, that doesn’t mean you should use pussy weights, it’s the maximum weight where you can still handle good form. After a really good back workout you shouldn’t be able to train decently any other muscle group.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Don’t mean to hijack but Aragorn and Jamfly why are you guys against deadlifting on back day?

Do your legs get sore or something and then you can’t do your leg workout? IDK about you but when I deadlift, my legs don’t get sore so it isn’t an issue. I have no problem keeping the intensity high for the rest of my back workout if I DL on the same day either. Just curious as to where you guys are coming from?[/quote]

It’s not the leg pain as I do not usually have bad leg DOMS from deadlift it’s actually more of a training schedule thing. I like to hit back on it’s own day and also on one of my leg days (via deadlifts) since I train legs twice a week. As you know the back is a very large set of muscle groups which is why I like this approach. I also do suffer from lower intensity on other back movements after deadlifting.

[quote]Xphobicas wrote:
My workout schedule is kind of fucked right now.

Tuesday: Legs

Squats ( heavy) 3-5 reps 5 sets

leg press ( heavy) 3-5 reps 3 sets

leg curls ( heavy) 3-5 reps 5 sets

donkey calf-raises 7-8 reps 5 sets

Wednesday: Shoulders

Military press 3-5 reps 5 sets

side lateral raises 3-5 reps 3 sets

front raises 3-5 reps 3 sets

Saturday: BACK ( see first post)

Sunday: Chest, triceps

flat bench press 3-5 reps 4 sets

incline dumbell press 3-5 reps 3 sets

peck deck 3-5 reps 3 sets

weighted dips 3-5 reps 5 sets

tricep push downs 3-5 reps 3 sets

I will up the volume on back day and chest day ( more volume for chest) and i know my routine order is not the best. Kind of fell into that order. I can handle an increase in volume definitely, i am not new to the iron game, just not been 100% dedicated or knowledgeable in the past. Will increase to 25 sets total for chest, 25 sets total for back, and increase shoulder work to 15 sets. Legs i feel i do enough. I will start working out my biceps separately too, on shoulder day. Eventually i want to have split of chest, legs, shoulders & arms, back.[/quote]

If you replaced you shoulder day with another leg day you could have:

Day 1: Push
Day 2: Legs (squats)
Day 4: Pull
Day 6: Legs (deads)

You could incorporate over head work in legs day 6 (such as clean and press) if you felt the need, I would keep it low volume since you would be pushing again two days later. The other thing you can do on a pull push routine is add biceps to the push day and tricepts to the pull day which would allow you to hit overhead press on Day 4 if you choose, it would look like:

Day 1: Push + bi’s
Day 2: Legs (squats)
Day 4: Pull + tri’s
Day 6: Legs (deads)

Just a few ideas, you obviously have your own goals and training is a very individual thing. You have had some good comment on this thread already, hope it helps you to get the best results possible.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

But my back is fucking solid. I’m not the biggest guy and I pretty much hate ringing my own bell, but I’m damn proud of my back and my hamstrings.[/quote]

Let’s see this back :o)