Back Overtraining?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]dutzu wrote:
for lats:
3x pull-ups
3x chin-ups
3x dumbbell rows

middle back:
3x low rows
3x t-bar rows

lower back:
3x deadlifts

traps:
3x dumbbell shrugs
3x barbell shrugs[/quote]

Well, pull-ups/chin-ups don’t exactly target just the lats while low rows do moreso (yet you list them as mid-back?). Others will have different opinions, but I think you’d be better off to start off with:
2 exercises for lats
2 for mid-back/rhomboids
1 for traps
1 for erectors.

I’d read this among any other back training articles you can find…

22

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]bignate wrote:

[quote]jskrabac wrote:

[quote]bignate wrote:
i used to do 30 sets including warmups, per muscle group once a week, i gained alot of size in two months but i also got a pinched nerve in my shoulder, so yeah sometimes less really is more[/quote]

How do you know the two were related? [/quote]

the fact that the mri showed my shoulder had literally grown unproportionally, and to fast. The doctor specifically told me “youre doing to much” Also it was those two months that i did that kind of training, and thats the injury it led to.

It grew unevenly from previous injuries, but what im driving at is that i stressed the shoulder so much it got fucked up.[/quote]

The shoulders are delicate. They’re a bit of a conundrum in that you really have to blast them to get good growth, but you also really need to baby them to prevent injury.

Do you do much prehab work? Like band pull aparts, dislocations, or no-moneys?[/quote]

uh its not exactly recovered, and i mostly cant do alot of exercises or use much weight anymore, ive tried all those, with little success, the biggest thing that helps me is doing rear delt work, full range of motion cable flys, and lots of baseball work on the shoulder and pec. I do some Y T A’s and other shit, but it doesnt help all to much and insurance doesnt get me any good pt’s… this is almost a year long injury now.

23

I can beat the hell out of my entire mid and upper back and still recover relatively quickly.
Not so with my lower back. I have to be careful about doing too much for it.

24

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I can beat the hell out of my entire mid and upper back and still recover relatively quickly.
Not so with my lower back. I have to be careful about doing too much for it.[/quote]

This used to be the case for me, too.
I had to deal with two disc herniations, leg numbness yada yada.
Then I started to wonder why my lower back was the only muscle group whose work capacity / resilience I couldn’t seriously increase.

In my case, the bottleneck was two-fold:

  1. I was training my lower back the wrong way, plain and simple (exercise selection and execution)
  2. my core-strength was near failsauce levels

Once I got hold of those two problems I had no problem whatsoever increasing lower back work capacity. The aforementioned symptoms also started to subside rather quickly.

25

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
RV is dead on. If you can’t progress in weight, there is nothing to show for the amount of work you are doing. Over training may have many, many definitions, but the one that sticks with me is the amount of work over and above that which you can improve upon later.

Yes there are some days that you are just on and some that you are off that may affect your work output, but in the long run, you should be able to progress in weight used, reps with a weight, or the bar velocity.[/quote]

If at the end of a years time, and your still lifting the same weight, whether its curls, benches, military presses or whatever, you will most likely not have gained any new muscle. Progression is the #1 thing all “experts” agree on. If your not progressing in the exercises your doing, you will not gain any new size. [/quote]

So the only way in your mind to progress is weight…to bad thats wrong.

26

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
RV is dead on. If you can’t progress in weight, there is nothing to show for the amount of work you are doing. Over training may have many, many definitions, but the one that sticks with me is the amount of work over and above that which you can improve upon later.

Yes there are some days that you are just on and some that you are off that may affect your work output, but in the long run, you should be able to progress in weight used, reps with a weight, or the bar velocity.[/quote]

If at the end of a years time, and your still lifting the same weight, whether its curls, benches, military presses or whatever, you will most likely not have gained any new muscle. Progression is the #1 thing all “experts” agree on. If your not progressing in the exercises your doing, you will not gain any new size. [/quote]

So the only way in your mind to progress is weight…to bad thats wrong.[/quote]

That’s not what he said. Progression is key, whether increasing the weight or otherwise. He said “most likely” not have gained new muscle, which IMO is probably true for most guys who find themselves lifting the same weight 365 days later.

27

[quote]FattyFat wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I can beat the hell out of my entire mid and upper back and still recover relatively quickly.
Not so with my lower back. I have to be careful about doing too much for it.[/quote]

This used to be the case for me, too.
I had to deal with two disc herniations, leg numbness yada yada.
Then I started to wonder why my lower back was the only muscle group whose work capacity / resilience I couldn’t seriously increase.

In my case, the bottleneck was two-fold:

  1. I was training my lower back the wrong way, plain and simple (exercise selection and execution)
  2. my core-strength was near failsauce levels

Once I got hold of those two problems I had no problem whatsoever increasing lower back work capacity. The aforementioned symptoms also started to subside rather quickly.

[/quote]

Admittedly my core is definitely a factor. Thanks Fatty!
Time to do some fix-up work.

28

[quote]jstreet0204 wrote:
“What I’m afraid of is overtraining”

With those six words you have defeated yourself before you have even started.
Try training your ass off for a while. If overtraining becomes an issue, adjust it.[/quote]

How much you benching these days brotha?

29

[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
RV is dead on. If you can’t progress in weight, there is nothing to show for the amount of work you are doing. Over training may have many, many definitions, but the one that sticks with me is the amount of work over and above that which you can improve upon later.

Yes there are some days that you are just on and some that you are off that may affect your work output, but in the long run, you should be able to progress in weight used, reps with a weight, or the bar velocity.[/quote]

If at the end of a years time, and your still lifting the same weight, whether its curls, benches, military presses or whatever, you will most likely not have gained any new muscle. Progression is the #1 thing all “experts” agree on. If your not progressing in the exercises your doing, you will not gain any new size. [/quote]

So the only way in your mind to progress is weight…to bad thats wrong.[/quote]

That’s not what he said. Progression is key, whether increasing the weight or otherwise. He said “most likely” not have gained new muscle, which IMO is probably true for most guys who find themselves lifting the same weight 365 days later.[/quote]

Besides… Reducing rest periods, increasing volume etc are all far more limited means of progression compared to adding weight, especially without drugs being part of the equation.
One can make them part of a training cycle, say, increase the amount of sets every 2 weeks or whatever, but eventually you have to back off again… And those methods eventually get in the way of progress if you go too far with them.
There is simply not nearly as much potential for progression in decreasing rest periods or increasing volume vs. increasing weight, and eventually you have to increase the weight anyway. (and that will make grow whatever is lifting the weight, before we end up in one of those retarded “my chest grew better when I started focusing on form and using less weight” debate.)

As for the OP and some of the guys in this thread… Well, you are outdoing most if not all olympia competitors in the (sets under work load)-volume department… (didn’t we have a thread like this recently already)… You certainly have better recovery abilities than I do, my hat is off to y’all.

30

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
RV is dead on. If you can’t progress in weight, there is nothing to show for the amount of work you are doing. Over training may have many, many definitions, but the one that sticks with me is the amount of work over and above that which you can improve upon later.

Yes there are some days that you are just on and some that you are off that may affect your work output, but in the long run, you should be able to progress in weight used, reps with a weight, or the bar velocity.[/quote]

If at the end of a years time, and your still lifting the same weight, whether its curls, benches, military presses or whatever, you will most likely not have gained any new muscle. Progression is the #1 thing all “experts” agree on. If your not progressing in the exercises your doing, you will not gain any new size. [/quote]

So the only way in your mind to progress is weight…to bad thats wrong.[/quote]

That’s not what he said. Progression is key, whether increasing the weight or otherwise. He said “most likely” not have gained new muscle, which IMO is probably true for most guys who find themselves lifting the same weight 365 days later.[/quote]

Besides… Reducing rest periods, increasing volume etc are all far more limited means of progression compared to adding weight, especially without drugs being part of the equation.
One can make them part of a training cycle, say, increase the amount of sets every 2 weeks or whatever, but eventually you have to back off again… And those methods eventually get in the way of progress if you go too far with them.
There is simply not nearly as much potential for progression in decreasing rest periods or increasing volume vs. increasing weight. (and that will make grow whatever is lifting the weight, before we end up in one of those retarded “my chest grew better when I started focusing on form and using less weight” debate.)

As for the OP and some of the guys in this thread… Well, you are outdoing most if not all olympia competitors in the (sets under work load)-volume department… (didn’t we have a thread like this recently already)… You certainly have better recovery abilities than I do, my hat is off to y’all.

[/quote]
you have to do a ton of volume to hit the back when your pulling with your biceps…

31

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:

[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
RV is dead on. If you can’t progress in weight, there is nothing to show for the amount of work you are doing. Over training may have many, many definitions, but the one that sticks with me is the amount of work over and above that which you can improve upon later.

Yes there are some days that you are just on and some that you are off that may affect your work output, but in the long run, you should be able to progress in weight used, reps with a weight, or the bar velocity.[/quote]

If at the end of a years time, and your still lifting the same weight, whether its curls, benches, military presses or whatever, you will most likely not have gained any new muscle. Progression is the #1 thing all “experts” agree on. If your not progressing in the exercises your doing, you will not gain any new size. [/quote]

So the only way in your mind to progress is weight…to bad thats wrong.[/quote]

That’s not what he said. Progression is key, whether increasing the weight or otherwise. He said “most likely” not have gained new muscle, which IMO is probably true for most guys who find themselves lifting the same weight 365 days later.[/quote]

Besides… Reducing rest periods, increasing volume etc are all far more limited means of progression compared to adding weight, especially without drugs being part of the equation.
One can make them part of a training cycle, say, increase the amount of sets every 2 weeks or whatever, but eventually you have to back off again… And those methods eventually get in the way of progress if you go too far with them.
There is simply not nearly as much potential for progression in decreasing rest periods or increasing volume vs. increasing weight. (and that will make grow whatever is lifting the weight, before we end up in one of those retarded “my chest grew better when I started focusing on form and using less weight” debate.)

As for the OP and some of the guys in this thread… Well, you are outdoing most if not all olympia competitors in the (sets under work load)-volume department… (didn’t we have a thread like this recently already)… You certainly have better recovery abilities than I do, my hat is off to y’all.

[/quote]
you have to do a ton of volume to hit the back when your pulling with your biceps…[/quote]

Ha, true I suppose.

32

I was thinking increased time under tension, increased speed/explosivness with a lift, better contraction with the correct muscles. Those are also ways to improve/ progress and will result in musclular gain.

33

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I was thinking increased time under tension, increased speed/explosivness with a lift, better contraction with the correct muscles. Those are also ways to improve/ progress and will result in musclular gain.[/quote]

They all only net you so much.

You are supposed to use the right muscle groups in the first place. That’s not a form of progression, either your technique does what it’s supposed to or it’s crap. Improving it just means you go from wasting your time to not wasting it anymore (though you may end up decreasing the recruitment of a target muscle by going too heavy relative to your max of course…

Having other muscles take over… I.e. PJR’s and generally all compound movements… Not an issue if you mean to do the exercise as a power move like the big 3 of course, though even then you probably want to focus on certain cues and muscle groups).

Those ways you list are nice and fine but way too limited. Naturals in particular can only do so much in terms of TUT etc.
Increased explosiveness comes from neural adaptions/skill improvements and from getting stronger and thus the weight you’re using becoming light enough to be lifted explosively.

In the end, you once again have to increase the weight eventually.
In fact, quite a few training methods which focus on those alterantive means of progression use them either because they are sport specific needs (oly lifting, rowing, etc) and/or in order to aid weight progression (as an alterantive or addition to regular periodization).

None of that is what the average T-Nation trainee ought to spend his time focusing on imo…

34

Agreed that you will eventually have to add weight. Just as an example i have been following CTs programs for about 5months now. And they are all TUT and volume based for the back and biceps. I havent increased weight on any exercise for 5 months yet my back has grown.

Just for fun i decided to do some weighted pull ups which i hadnt done in 5months. Last time iwas 175 and was able to get sets of 4-5 with 15lbs. Now i got sets of 6-8 with 45lbs at a bw of 200.

Just trying to discuss other means. I know you are much bigger and more experienced.

35

I’m not really up to date on CT’s recent training philosophies. Are you sure he meant for you to not increase the weight at all during those 5 months?

Anyway… The body will try to adapt to whatever you throw at it, so your experience is not unusual. But as I said… There is only so much you can do with this without eventually upping the weight again.
You started out very weak on pull-ups also (and in general). The overall situation matters a great deal.
One of those reasons many obsolete training philosophies (not saying CT’s is one of them) stick around forever with their own little fanbase is that for beginners and early intermediates, just about everything works to some degree.

Congrats on your progress though, even for beginners it’s not exactly easy to get stronger on pull-ups while also adding bodyweight due to the combined loads (bw+plates) and usually weak mid-back muscles that cause other muscle groups to take over.

That being said… Doing the basics the right way might surprise you in terms of just how much more progress you can make in the next 5 months.

36

I had been doing them previous to that. For 6 months. Started at 155 and terriblely thing. Only worked out to stay in shape before that. I will be posting my 1 year progress pics in the middle of jan when its been a full year of serios training. I started with just the basics. I actually based a lot of my training earlier off of what you had posted.

You can look into CTs methods i would say they are far from obsolete but to each his own. In fact his philosophies are constatly changing due to experiences. But i digress.

And yes i was/still am very weak in many areas.

37

FWIW I meant starting strength, HIT and so on… By obsolete… Not CT’s stuff.

38

C_C, what’s your opinion of my back routine that i’ve been doing for the past couple of months?

What i do is i pick 3 exercises:
Face pull(Mike Wolfe style)-Rear Delts
Seated Cable Row(Overhand)-Rhomboids
Seated Cable Row(Underhand)-Lats (It’s a completely different movement for me underhand vs overhand).

I ramp up to one set on one exercise and rest pause it. The next day i do another exercise, and the next day the other. Then i go back to the first.
M-Face pull
T-Overhand Row
W-Underhand Row
Th-Face Pull
F-Overhand Row
S-Underhand Row
Repeat forever?

So far it has worked as i’ve gotten alot stronger on all 3 movements. Since it’s working should i stick with it? I’m asking because it’s so different then what nearly all big guys do.

39

[quote]deadliftgoal500 wrote:
C_C, what’s your opinion of my back routine that i’ve been doing for the past couple of months?

What i do is i pick 3 exercises:
Face pull(Mike Wolfe style)-Rear Delts
Seated Cable Row(Overhand)-Rhomboids
Seated Cable Row(Underhand)-Lats (It’s a completely different movement for me underhand vs overhand).

I ramp up to one set on one exercise and rest pause it. The next day i do another exercise, and the next day the other. Then i go back to the first.
M-Face pull
T-Overhand Row
W-Underhand Row
Th-Face Pull
F-Overhand Row
S-Underhand Row
Repeat forever?

So far it has worked as i’ve gotten alot stronger on all 3 movements. Since it’s working should i stick with it? I’m asking because it’s so different then what nearly all big guys do.

[/quote]

Is this all you are doing for your back?

40

[quote]deadliftgoal500 wrote:
C_C, what’s your opinion of my back routine that i’ve been doing for the past couple of months?

What i do is i pick 3 exercises:
Face pull(Mike Wolfe style)-Rear Delts
Seated Cable Row(Overhand)-Rhomboids
Seated Cable Row(Underhand)-Lats (It’s a completely different movement for me underhand vs overhand).

I ramp up to one set on one exercise and rest pause it. The next day i do another exercise, and the next day the other. Then i go back to the first.
M-Face pull
T-Overhand Row
W-Underhand Row
Th-Face Pull
F-Overhand Row
S-Underhand Row
Repeat forever?

So far it has worked as i’ve gotten alot stronger on all 3 movements. Since it’s working should i stick with it? I’m asking because it’s so different then what nearly all big guys do.
[/quote]

I’d probably end up with some form of tendinitis doing back work 6 days a week, every week, even if it’s not too much overall. That would pretty much be my main worry here.

Never tried though, no idea.

What sort of progress have you made?