T Nation

AZ Immigration Law Signed


#1

Arizona's proposal would make it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. The measure would require migrants to produce papers verifying their status when asked to do so by a police officer.


#2

I believe that this legislation is a large step in the right direction, though I will be surprised if it ever sees the light of day after all of the challenges and lawsuits that will undoubtedly be brought against it.

It’s funny to hear people describe the signing of this bill as “racist”, as if to imply that “illegal immigrant” is a race of its own.


#3

So what do you guys think of it?


#4

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
So what do you guys think of it? [/quote]

Depends entirely on enforcement. The police departments may choose not to really enforce it at all. OR they might use it simply to harass people.


#5

It says in the bill, something like police officers may not use race as the only means to ask for ID, there has to be something else suspicious. We all know that’s bullshit: hell, if I was a cop in AZ and saw some Mexican with a shitty car that barely spoke English, I’d likely ask for his ID.


#6

If only we could get something like this drafted and signed in california…

I wonder what the impact this bill have on republican/latino relations in the future.


#7

Here are my thoughts…

People near the border pretty much got sick and tired of bitching and moaning, and seeing it get nowhere. So they took matter into their own hands. I applaud the governor for signing the bill, even with Obama criticizing it, he is equally irresponsible for not securing the border. So his opinion on this is worthless in my opinion.

How officers use this will determine the outcome of it. If they plan to arrest every single Latino, then of course it will be a nightmare in every possible manner. However, if cops use the idea of probably cause and reasonable suspicion intelligently, then it will be good. What is my definition of reasonable suspicion? If a cop pulls over someone for a traffic violation, and they hand over a library card from Guatemala, then yea I might think he could be illegal. However, someone gets questioned for eating nachos, then yea that’s worthless. I like nachos, don’t fuck with my nachos. Rather than listen to all the exaggerated rhetoric, it will depend on how cops go about enforcing this law to see how it pans out.

Like Standard Donkey mentioned, it will have to stand up to legal challenges.


#8

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Here are my thoughts…

People near the border pretty much got sick and tired of bitching and moaning, and seeing it get nowhere. So they took matter into their own hands. I applaud the governor for signing the bill, even with Obama criticizing it, he is equally irresponsible for not securing the border. So his opinion on this is worthless in my opinion.

How officers use this will determine the outcome of it. If they plan to arrest every single Latino, then of course it will be a nightmare in every possible manner. However, if cops use the idea of probably cause and reasonable suspicion intelligently, then it will be good. What is my definition of reasonable suspicion? If a cop pulls over someone for a traffic violation, and they hand over a library card from Guatemala, then yea I might think he could be illegal. However, someone gets questioned for eating nachos, then yea that’s worthless. I like nachos, don’t fuck with my nachos. Rather than listen to all the exaggerated rhetoric, it will depend on how cops go about enforcing this law to see how it pans out.

Like Standard Donkey mentioned, it will have to stand up to legal challenges.[/quote]
My thoughts exactly.


#9

Standard Donkey, where in Cali are you?


#10

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Standard Donkey, where in Cali are you?[/quote]

Bay Area


#11

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
So what do you guys think of it? [/quote]

Depends entirely on enforcement. The police departments may choose not to really enforce it at all. OR they might use it simply to harass people. [/quote]
This is exactly my view. I’m a bit nervous that this becomes maybe even inadvertently a violation of the rights of legal immigrants which I wouldn’t like. On the other hand they a have an intolerable situation down there with Mexican criminals. One of the honchos was saying earlier today that it would only be used to demand proof of citizenship when being questioned on the violation of already existing law if I understood him correctly.

In other words it’s not: “you’re Hispanic, show me some ID”, but rather “do you know how fast you were going sir and while we’re at it please show me your green card”. When you have an epidemic of a certain group committing crimes, and many of them quite violent, it’s not unreasonable while pursuing a legit violation to also find out if someone who fits that profile is a legal citizen. How it plays out in practice is anything but certain though.

Here comes all the “but that’s profiling, you even used the word yourself” outrage.


#12

I think you hit it perfectly Tirib.

The cardinal here in Los Angeles paralleled this to the rounding up of the Jews in WW2, I nearly fell over when I heard that pedophile loving child molesting piece of shit had the nerve to say something like that. You have to credit pro open border groups, they are certainly going to try to pose this as an anti-Latino law. The only people who should be worried are the illegals, and if they happen to arrest a citizen, he can sue and get paid. You can’t not enforce a law from fear of making a mistake. All laws are critical of racial profiling.


#13

I’m sure cops are really going to stop every mexican to ask for papers, drive them back to the station, feed and house them, and then drive them back to Mexico when there is enough of them. LMAO.

Be thankful for immigrants even illegal ones because our society is aging and having less kids. Its the industrial “curse”, and western countries with tougher immigration laws are not filling their work force as their population of person over 60 is hitting 50%, and their economies are stagnating.

of course, thats easy for me to say because they’re not standing on a corner near my children’s school.


#14

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
So what do you guys think of it? [/quote]

Depends entirely on enforcement. The police departments may choose not to really enforce it at all. OR they might use it simply to harass people. [/quote]
This is exactly my view. I’m a bit nervous that this becomes maybe even inadvertently a violation of the rights of legal immigrants which I wouldn’t like. On the other hand they a have an intolerable situation down there with Mexican criminals. One of the honchos was saying earlier today that it would only be used to demand proof of citizenship when being questioned on the violation of already existing law if I understood him correctly.

In other words it’s not: “you’re Hispanic, show me some ID”, but rather “do you know how fast you were going sir and while we’re at it please show me your green card”. When you have an epidemic of a certain group committing crimes, and many of them quite violent, it’s not unreasonable while pursuing a legit violation to also find out if someone who fits that profile is a legal citizen. How it plays out in practice is anything but certain though.

Here comes all the “but that’s profiling, you even used the word yourself” outrage.

[/quote]

I know that illegal immigrants can be criminals fleeing their home country, but I’d be interested in seeing where you got stats that say theres an epidemic of violent crimes caused by undocumented workers.


#15

This is gonna be problematic even if implemented perfectly. Let’s not kid ourselves about that. There will be abuse somewhere down the line and there will be lawsuits by killers claiming they were profiled.


#16

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
<<< of course, thats easy for me to say because they’re not standing on a corner near my children’s school >>>[/quote]
I’m glad you added this because there are quite a few families with dead and missing loved ones who are, I promise you, not grateful for illegal immigrants.


#17

Anyone (Trib?) know about the Constitutionality of this? Do the Bill of Rights apply to States? Does Arizona have something in their Constitution against this sort of thing?


#18

[quote]spyoptic wrote:
<<< I know that illegal immigrants can be criminals fleeing their home country, but I’d be interested in seeing where you got stats that say theres an epidemic of violent crimes caused by undocumented workers.
[/quote]
I said nothing about undocumented workers. I said illegal immigrants. I am not implying in any way that “Mexican” and criminal are synonymous. Or that every person here illegally is a killer. However, a significant percentage of people here illegally are criminals.

We have a right to enforce our borders and it is suicidal not to do so.


#19

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Anyone (Trib?) know about the Constitutionality of this? Do the Bill of Rights apply to States? Does Arizona have something in their Constitution against this sort of thing? [/quote]
The general, but not universal consensus among those whose opinion I care about is that the feds should enforce national borders, but absent that states can do it as long as it doesn’t violate federal law which of course all the open border types are quick to claim is the case. I don’t know. I do know if I were an official in a state with borders under siege like Arizona and the feds were dragging their feet I’d probably start looking for solutions too in the absence of clear evidence I couldn’t.


#20

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