Authors who Don't Look like They've Stepped in the Gym

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If they were truly creating impressively big and muscular bodybuilders, don’t you think they would be rushing to post pics of them?[/quote]

I know that Thibaudeau has posted pics of several guys he’s worked with. Most of the contributors have testimonials and/or documentation on their own websites. I think it’s just that not a lot of coaches here work with aspiring bodybuilders, but that’s not to say they don’t know how to add muscle onto people.

The methods that put 10 pounds of muscle on a baseball player or mixed martial artist will carryover to put at least 10 pounds of muscle on an “average joe.”

I don’t think we can say it’s exactly “easy” to lose fat, but I do agree that it’s more difficult to add muscle. It’s also very unusual for someone to hire a trainer/coach for the years of training it would take to impress many of the people here.

But there are plenty of examples of the contributors here knowing what they’re doing. They get results for the people they work with. It’s not their fault if people don’t come to them wanting to get bodybuilder-large.

[quote]timbofirstblood wrote:
I remember seeing an article awhile back that included an image of Arnold. Now, I’m 100% sure that this coach didn’t train Arnold, so why do they think they can take credit for his success?[/quote]

That’s a dopey line of thinking. The images in articles are, mostly, for something interesting or relevant to look at. Unless the author specifically states, “And this is an example of my training methods,” You’d be a half-wit to think it’s being implied that the coach worked with the individual pictured.

Taking a quick look around this page, I’m 100% sure that Professor X didn’t create the Luke Cage character, so what makes him think he can use that image as an avatar. (See, doesn’t that sound kinda dumb?)

Lighten up, Francis. (Crap, I didn’t write the script for Stripes. How could I think I could take credit for that line.)

22

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If they were truly creating impressively big and muscular bodybuilders, don’t you think they would be rushing to post pics of them?

I know that Thibaudeau has posted pics of several guys he’s worked with. Most of the contributors have testimonials and/or documentation on their own websites. I think it’s just that not a lot of coaches here work with aspiring bodybuilders, but that’s not to say they don’t know how to add muscle onto people.[/quote]

I thought it was a given that CT has posted images of guys he has worked with several times, one of which looked amazing in competition.

[quote]
The methods that put 10 pounds of muscle on a baseball player or mixed martial artist will carryover to put at least 10 pounds of muscle on an “average joe.”[/quote]

…and “10 pounds of muscle” isn’t going to turn someone from “skinny” to “huge”. Get back to me when they post someone who gained 50lbs of muscle.

[quote]

It is EASY to train someone to lose body fat (assuming they are actually motivated to do so). It is MUCH harder to take someone under your wing for a couple of years and actually guide into gaining a load of muscle mass.

I don’t think we can say it’s exactly “easy” to lose fat, but I do agree that it’s more difficult to add muscle. It’s also very unusual for someone to hire a trainer/coach for the years of training it would take to impress many of the people here.

But there are plenty of examples of the contributors here knowing what they’re doing. They get results for the people they work with. It’s not their fault if people don’t come to them wanting to get bodybuilder-large.[/quote]

If they speak on issues as if their way is the THE way to get bodybuilder large, then it very much becomes a question of who they trained that got that way. If they speak on these issues as if larger lifters are training wrong…or aren’t “functional”, excuse me for speaking up for how ludicrous that sounds.

If certain routines are so much better than splits, then I sure expect to see some massive people using those other routines. This is a bodybuilding forum after all.

23

[quote]Professor X wrote:

If they were truly creating impressively big and muscular bodybuilders, don’t you think they would be rushing to post pics of them?

[/quote]

Yes, that’s what I was thinking. Even if pure bodybuilders aren’t people they usually train, couldn’t they use a before and after picture of a MMA fighter?

Only guy I’ve seen who uses pictures of himself and actual clients (and himself WITH an actual client), is Christian Thibaudeau. Oh, and I remember Scott Abel using pictures of clients in one article.

There are probably others who have done the same, I haven’t read every article on T-Nation.

Point being, if you want me to buy your books, show me someone with a regular physique who you trained to be BIG. And what would be a more natural place of putting the pictures than in an article written to PROMOTE THE DAMN BOOK.

24

[quote]Mr.Purple wrote:
I’d prefer that the authors posted more pictures of people they have trained from newbie to big and muscular. Some of them have said in the past that they make their bread and butter from coaching ‘regular joes.’ Well surely these Joes didn’t stay regular under a top trainer’s tutelage?

What the coach himself looks like is not all that important.[/quote]

Exactly. The thing to remember is that the authors are salesman as well as coaches…as such, there is oftentimes an attempt to create more novel ideas/methods or to exaggerate claims in order to get people to listen to what they have to say.

An author could very well train with style ‘X’ to build his physique (or have done it in the past to build the foundation of his physique), but market style ‘Y’ because that is his niche and will draw more people due to its novelty and overall appeal.

As such, it is probably best to look at the clients (not client - as most would like to see how style ‘X’ works ON THE WHOLE…not just for one or two people cough Bartl cough Gus*) as a more accurate representation of how well specific methods work.

25

[quote]tedro wrote:
trextacy wrote:
Funny, there are a lot of sports where the coach is considered an authority but couldn’t really play a lick (Bill Parcells, Bobby Cox, many others).

You can understand the game and how to get people to succeed without doing it yourself.

“Looking the part” is as much about marketing and credibility as anything else.

Being a successful football player has a whole lot more to do with having favorable genetics than putting on muscle and staying in decent shape does.

Also, I don’t know about Cox because I don’t follow baseball, but Parcells did play football at a much higher level than the average Joe can even dream about.

Your comparison was weak.[/quote]

Maybe I didn’t pick the best examples, but the point is that someone can train others and be full of valuable information without that person being elite themselves. We see this in many sports and don’t question it.

And genetics has as much to do with success in bodybuilding as it does in football (moreso actually).

I do agree with the comment that the results of their trainees/students is relevant. I had my biosignature done by a guy who learned from Poliquin and was certified, etc. He is a S&C coach at a D1 school. He wasn’t very impressive to look at, but he has helped a lot of people achieve their goals and knows a lot.

26

I kinda agree with the general way this thread is going. Richard Marcinko used to say that ‘‘leaders lead from the front, not from the back’’. As a coach, I feel that you should look like someone who has indeed found an effective way to build muscle/get lean/get strong.

However I also know plenty of phenoms who look like greek gods despite their total lack of training knowledge, either regarding theory or practice. Heck, I have a few friends that look better than 90% of the trainers or coaches around who hardly ever trained seriously. One of them is 185lbs on 5’6’’ in contest condition year-round yet he has never lifted a weight in his life!!!

So obviously, looking jacked is not a guarantee of training knowledge either.

This is where client’s successes can become important. A competent coach should, in theory, be able to constantly get results with his clients.

The problem here is that as a coach you have total control over your client around 5 hours per week (when he is in the gym with you). You really cannot control what he eats during the day or what he does outside of the gym. You can TELL them what to do and they can TELL you that they are doing it… but oftentimes the reality is quite different.

You can be the best coach in the world, if your client eat craps, do recreational drugs and sleep 2 hours per night, he will not get results!

Plus, the ‘‘phenom’’ factor also applies here. I know quite a few idiotic coaches who had the good fortune of working with one FREAK that turned into a beast and made that coach’s reputation. Disregard the fact that in 10 years the coach has not had any success with anybody else!

So how can you judge the quality of a coach? I think that it’s by looking at the big picture… how he looks himself (especially how much he has progressed since he started), how many successful clients did he have… what is his rate of success, etc.

27

From a logical point of view, who the person saying something is is irrelevant to the validity of his/her claim. Disregarding something based on who says it is an ad hominem fallacy (thank you philosophy 101).

Although from an everything else point of view, people should practice what they preach.

28

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I kinda agree with the general way this thread is going. Richard Marcinko used to say that ‘‘leaders lead from the front, not from the back’’. As a coach, I feel that you should look like someone who has indeed found an effective way to build muscle/get lean/get strong.

However I also know plenty of phenoms who look like greek gods despite their total lack of training knowledge, either regarding theory or practice. Heck, I have a few friends that look better than 90% of the trainers or coaches around who hardly ever trained seriously. One of them is 185lbs on 5’6’’ in contest condition year-round yet he has never lifted a weight in his life!!!

So obviously, looking jacked is not a guarantee of training knowledge either.

This is where client’s successes can become important. A competent coach should, in theory, be able to constantly get results with his clients.

The problem here is that as a coach you have total control over your client around 5 hours per week (when he is in the gym with you). You really cannot control what he eats during the day or what he does outside of the gym. You can TELL them what to do and they can TELL you that they are doing it… but oftentimes the reality is quite different.

You can be the best coach in the world, if your client eat craps, do recreational drugs and sleep 2 hours per night, he will not get results!

Plus, the ‘‘phenom’’ factor also applies here. I know quite a few idiotic coaches who had the good fortune of working with one FREAK that turned into a beast and made that coach’s reputation. Disregard the fact that in 10 years the coach has not had any success with anybody else!

So how can you judge the quality of a coach? I think that it’s by looking at the big picture… how he looks himself (especially how much he has progressed since he started), how many successful clients did he have… what is his rate of success, etc.[/quote]

I think one reason many other authors get so much flack as far as this issue is the way they present their own information. If it weren’t for comments that make it sound like the bigger you are, the dumber/fatter you are, I doubt anyone would question them as much.

Therefore, much of this they bring on themselves.

I am a big guy who used to be a skinny guy. I am far from stupid and I am not training wrong. While I may have better genetics than some, I am by no means some genetic freak that grows by looking at weights. I am someone who is extremely consistent and has been for several years…which makes all of the difference in the world.

I will always listen to someone who has actually achieved a high level of development over some guy who claims they know it all but who wouldn’t even stand out in a crowd if they wore a large tee shirt.

In the world of weightlifting, if you don’t have much to show for all of your “knowledge”, expect those who have built themselves up to question why you think your voice deserves to be heard so loudly.

29

I didn’t take the time to read all the posts and maybe my points have already been brought up, but knowledge is different than experience and sometimes genetics throw you a curve ball or a blessing.

Each person should do enough research and trial and error through training/nutrition where they can find out what works for them. CT seems to be the one who sheds the most sensible light for my tastes, but that doesn’t mean he’s the best or only credible author here. It seems his advice and articles I just get more out of .vs. the others. That is my experience/opinion, but you may relate more to another author on this site…

I guess what I am saying is that hopefully by now you have learned to weed out what you think is good/bad advice and take all things as opinion…every new thing is worth reading about and learning about. If you think it’s worth trying then you do it and assess the results for your body. If you read something that you didn’t know and makes you go ‘hmmmm…’ then you should probably read more…

Thats how I function at least…in the end nobody knows my body better than myself, with maybe an exception of this girl I was with recently…but thats another topic! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: lol jk

DG

30

[quote]anonym wrote:

As such, it is probably best to look at the clients (not client - as most would like to see how style ‘X’ works ON THE WHOLE…not just for one or two people cough Bartl cough Gus*) as a more accurate representation of how well specific methods work.[/quote]

Sebastien Cossette
Christiane Lamy
Amit Sapir (won his pro card)
Oscar Dexter (won his pro card)
Allen Cress

Just to give you a few examples besides Bartl and Gus :wink:

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Christiane

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420×560 42.5 KB

Amit (bad lighting)

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Oscar

34

[quote]chimera182 wrote:
From a logical point of view, who the person saying something is is irrelevant to the validity of his/her claim. Disregarding something based on who says it is an ad hominem fallacy (thank you philosophy 101).

[/quote]

I wouldn’t thank them just yet if you really believe this. In fact, here’s what you do…you go ahead and ask everu single 120lbs person you see how to get really BIG muscles and I’ll stick to following what really big people do in the gym to get even bigger.

In 5 years we shall compare results.

Starting…now.

35

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
anonym wrote:

As such, it is probably best to look at the clients (not client - as most would like to see how style ‘X’ works ON THE WHOLE…not just for one or two people cough Bartl cough Gus*) as a more accurate representation of how well specific methods work.

Sebastien Cossette
Christiane Lamy
Amit Sapir (won his pro card)
Oscar Dexter (won his pro card)
Allen Cress

Just to give you a few examples besides Bartl and Gus ;)[/quote]

See…now you are just making me feel bad.

Did he win that show?

36

[quote]Professor X wrote:
chimera182 wrote:
From a logical point of view, who the person saying something is is irrelevant to the validity of his/her claim. Disregarding something based on who says it is an ad hominem fallacy (thank you philosophy 101).

I wouldn’t thank them just yet if you really believe this. In fact, here’s what you do…you go ahead and ask everu single 120lbs person you see how to get really BIG muscles and I’ll stick to following what really big people do in the gym to get even bigger.

In 5 years we shall compare results.

Starting…now.[/quote]

I bet I know who will win.

Some coaching comparisons I usually hear when this topic is brought up centers on a football coach, or, say Tiger Woods’ golf coach. The thing is, body composition change isn’t like helping drill a consistent swing plane in golf or implementing a cover 2 defense.

One thing I think is very important in body comp is motivation / desire. By now, if we don’t know that more food and heavy weights can make one larger and stronger, we’re nuts. Making yourself do what’s necessary- with the amount of food and consistency in the gym- that’s what not-to-many people actually do.

Getting advice from someone who has made a transformation themselves seems to me much more helpful than someone who looks the same they always have- especially if that ‘same’ looks like someone who doesn’t lift weights.

37

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
This is why I only listen to CT and Poliquin. The other’s can probably babrely squat my wrist curl max. I’m not listening to a word they have to say.[/quote]

I’m still waiting for Poliquin to post pictures and/or video clips of his female athlete that has thighs that are bigger than Tom Platz’s, strongman competitor that has thighs that make Ronnie Coleman’s look small, and several female athletes that can do 12+ dead-hang pullups and chinups.

I’m also waiting for him to shut up about bobsledders.

38

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
anonym wrote:

As such, it is probably best to look at the clients (not client - as most would like to see how style ‘X’ works ON THE WHOLE…not just for one or two people cough Bartl cough Gus*) as a more accurate representation of how well specific methods work.

Sebastien Cossette
Christiane Lamy
Amit Sapir (won his pro card)
Oscar Dexter (won his pro card)
Allen Cress

Just to give you a few examples besides Bartl and Gus :wink:

See…now you are just making me feel bad.

Did he win that show?[/quote]

Who? Amit or Oscar?

39

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
anonym wrote:

As such, it is probably best to look at the clients (not client - as most would like to see how style ‘X’ works ON THE WHOLE…not just for one or two people cough Bartl cough Gus*) as a more accurate representation of how well specific methods work.

Sebastien Cossette
Christiane Lamy
Amit Sapir (won his pro card)
Oscar Dexter (won his pro card)
Allen Cress

Just to give you a few examples besides Bartl and Gus :wink:

See…now you are just making me feel bad.

Did he win that show?

Who? Amit or Oscar?
[/quote]

Amit.

I’ve never seen Oscar before.

40

[quote]Professor X wrote:
chimera182 wrote:
From a logical point of view, who the person saying something is is irrelevant to the validity of his/her claim. Disregarding something based on who says it is an ad hominem fallacy (thank you philosophy 101).

I wouldn’t thank them just yet if you really believe this. In fact, here’s what you do…you go ahead and ask everu single 120lbs person you see how to get really BIG muscles and I’ll stick to following what really big people do in the gym to get even bigger.

In 5 years we shall compare results.

Starting…now.[/quote]

The rest of my post clarified my opinion, or so I thought. I meant that from a purely logical standpoint, it’s irrelevant who says something. But in the case of fitness/bodybuilding you’re probably better served listening to people who look like they know what they’re talking about.