T Nation

AUC Full Veil Ban Challenged

There seems to be trouble in the birthland of the Muslim Brotherhood.

“A court in Egypt has ruled that the American University of Cairo cannot ban women from wearing the niqab - the full Islamic face covering - on campus.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6737993.stm

I know for a fact that if a chick shows up in niqab in a school in Morocco, she’ll have a really hard time justifying it. Indeed, she’ll probably be expelled and there’s nothing she can do about it.

Incidentally, the famous case of the little French school girl who wanted to wear a veil (not even a niqad, just a regular scarf!) was forbidden from doing so by a French court. The judge ruled that religious symbols weren’t allowed in public schools.

A cunning pair of Muslim teenagers took the precedent to a whole new level when they sued their school because it had a Christmas tree inside the school property.

Now, what do you defenders of freedom say about this? Is the Egyptian ruling a victory for freedom of choice?

I guess the most important question is…Is she hot? Maybe the veil is doing everyone a favor. Lets see some pics. Women from that area of the world seem to hit a wall at about age 25 and their looks go right to hell. She must be older.

Why don’t they just wear halloween masks or KKK hoods. It is just so degrading to women.

What kind of upbringing do these poor women have to want to wear that shit?

Can anyone wear a full mask in these schools?

My medical school class had about 30 muslims in it. Whatever bigotry, dislike/hatred and the like I felt towards muslims (considering that I had never known any) quickly dissipated after I met and eventually became friends with a few of them. Really good people.

Of the 30 about half were girls. The majority of those 15 didn’t wear any type of covering. They dressed very modestly (i.e. no cleavage or tight jeans). About 5 of the muslim chicks wore a very loose scarf.

I saw a muslim women in the full covering at Target the other day. I honestly was scared when I saw her covered like that. I really think that muslim women who cover up like that have no say in the matter and are being told to do that.

I have a hard time believing any normal human being would cover themself like that. The only thing uncovered on the woman I saw was her eyes. Really scary and sad. Of course her controlling husband was at her side and gave me a dirty look as I unknowingly stared at her, a little in shock.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Why don’t they just wear halloween masks or KKK hoods. It is just so degrading to women.

What kind of upbringing do these poor women have to want to wear that shit?[/quote]

What is the difference between wearing high-heels and stockings verses a veil. I think its weird that women should want to wear anything extraneous but it isn’t for someone like me to decide. Anyone should be able to decide for them self what they want to wear.

[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
I have a hard time believing any normal human being would cover themself like that. The only thing uncovered on the woman I saw was her eyes. Really scary and sad. Of course her controlling husband was at her side and gave me a dirty look as I unknowingly stared at her, a little in shock.[/quote]

Actually, even though I’m a Muslim and Arab myself, I still get shocked when I see a woman wearing that outfit. I think my first encounter was that kind was a dozen years ago when I accompanied my grand mother to the market.

I asked my grandma about here opinion on the issue, and she went on to talk about the times when she wore one. She acknowledged that it was more the pressure of society than her own choice, but then she went on to describe how better off women were around those times.

It’s her belief that women were treated with more respect and, of course, it was more practical (make-up-wise!). Then she went on to explain that what was the norm became the exception, and how nowadays, anyone covered up, shocks people.

At this point, we have to distinguish between the classy niqab that has been lost, and the plain black see-nothing-at-all outfits that are around today.

So, while I would myself be shocked at a niqab wearing woman, I have no doubt that some do it out of personal choice as illustrated by the story I posted. Surely, that girl is the rebel in this age!

[quote]lixy wrote:
There seems to be trouble in the birthland of the Muslim Brotherhood.

“A court in Egypt has ruled that the American University of Cairo cannot ban women from wearing the niqab - the full Islamic face covering - on campus.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6737993.stm

I know for a fact that if a chick shows up in niqab in a school in Morocco, she’ll have a really hard time justifying it. Indeed, she’ll probably be expelled and there’s nothing she can do about it.

Incidentally, the famous case of the little French school girl who wanted to wear a veil (not even a niqad, just a regular scarf!) was forbidden from doing so by a French court. The judge ruled that religious symbols weren’t allowed in public schools.

A cunning pair of Muslim teenagers took the precedent to a whole new level when they sued their school because it had a Christmas tree inside the school property.

Now, what do you defenders of freedom say about this? Is the Egyptian ruling a victory for freedom of choice?[/quote]

If a girl wants to wrap herself up like a mummy I don’t give a shit and I don’t think there should be any laws preventing it. Besides, my experience tell me they are probably doing me a favor by covering up. Now if bathing were a daily ritual…

I do think private institutions have a right to institute what ever dress code they see fit, though, without government intrusion.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Now, what do you defenders of freedom say about this? Is the Egyptian ruling a victory for freedom of choice?[/quote]

Yes it is. Now if we could get the SCOTUS to rule it illegal for American schools to infringe on Americans’ Right to bear arms…

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Now if bathing were a daily ritual… [/quote]

Actually it is.

A Muslim is supposed to perform ablutions before every prayer. That is five times a day. Add to that the thorough mandatory full body bath after sex, periods, or wet dreams, and you end up with what’s easily the most hygien-centered group you can come across.

You must have Muslims confused with Indians or something…

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Now if bathing were a daily ritual…

Actually it is.

A Muslim is supposed to perform ablutions before every prayer. That is five times a day. Add to that the thorough mandatory full body bath after sex, periods, or wet dreams, and you end up with what’s easily the most hygien-centered group you can come across.

You must have Muslims confused with Indians or something…[/quote]

I was kidding…
I did work with a young muslim girl many years ago who must have prayed only once a week because she stank unbelievably. She could make a rat yak. This was sad because otherwise she was pretty attractive. It was weird because attractive and smelly usually don’t go together.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Why don’t they just wear halloween masks or KKK hoods. It is just so degrading to women.

What kind of upbringing do these poor women have to want to wear that shit?

What is the difference between wearing high-heels and stockings verses a veil. I think its weird that women should want to wear anything extraneous but it isn’t for someone like me to decide. Anyone should be able to decide for them self what they want to wear.[/quote]

Veil goes on the head.

Seriously I think most of these women are brainwashed/forced into the veil.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Seriously I think most of these women are brainwashed/forced into the veil.[/quote]

Yes, I agree to a point. Does free-will even exist? All human behavior is learned and therefore some form of brainwashing.

Women don’t wear makeup because it has any sort of utility. They wear it because western society has taught them that beauty is important to success–that is brainwashing too.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Seriously I think most of these women are brainwashed/forced into the veil.

Yes, I agree to a point. Does free-will even exist? All human behavior is learned and therefore some form of brainwashing.

Women don’t wear makeup because it has any sort of utility. They wear it because western society has taught them that beauty is important to success–that is brainwashing too.
[/quote]

Nice. You got the point. That thoroughly disqualifies the question that Zap asked.

[quote]Shoebolt wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Seriously I think most of these women are brainwashed/forced into the veil.

Yes, I agree to a point. Does free-will even exist? All human behavior is learned and therefore some form of brainwashing.

Women don’t wear makeup because it has any sort of utility. They wear it because western society has taught them that beauty is important to success–that is brainwashing too.

Nice. You got the point. That thoroughly disqualifies the question that Zap asked.
[/quote]

Huh? I pretty much feel the same about make up and high heeled shoes.

I don’t like that some women feel like they have to wear them just to leave the house. Someone messed with their heads to make them feel this way about themselves.

I consider some of the more extreme head coverings even worse.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Women don’t wear makeup because it has any sort of utility. They wear it because western society has taught them that beauty is important to success–that is brainwashing too.
[/quote]

If beauty buys them something they didn’t have before - such as “success” - then wearing makeup has utility, genius.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Seriously I think most of these women are brainwashed/forced into the veil.

Yes, I agree to a point. Does free-will even exist? All human behavior is learned and therefore some form of brainwashing.

[/quote]

Genetics plays a role in behavior. I don’t even want to get into the freewill vs. determinism argument again. That’s as elusive as the existance of God.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
If beauty buys them something they didn’t have before - such as “success” - then wearing makeup has utility, genius.
[/quote]
It doesn’t make them more “useful” is what I mean.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Genetics plays a role in behavior. [/quote]

Look, a racist came out of the closet…

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Genetics plays a role in behavior. I don’t even want to get into the freewill vs. determinism argument again. That’s as elusive as the existance of God.
[/quote]
Correct. Which is why some people rebel against the “system” and some people conform–that could also be a learned behavior. We could go like this in circles all day so I’ll end that point here.

Many Muslim women, specifically ones that I have spoken with, do not view a head wrap as a sexist instrument because they were raised to accept it–it then becomes a part of them and they feel naked without it; just like many women cannot leave the house without some sort of “product” being applied to their bodies.

We are viewing this issue thru the lens of western culture. I don’t understand why women do what they do in any culture–somewhere, I am sure men had something to do with it.