[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Our reward was that they vote terrorists into power.
I’m saying: Level this f’in’ place or be levelled!
[/quote]
Let’s level your neighbourhood into the ground along with all your inbred redneck relatives.
It’s people like you who keep terrorism alive.
Fool.
[quote]makkun wrote:
Zap Branigan,
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
Germany was flattened during the war. This was absolute rock bottom for any society. They had nowhere to go but up. When it was time to rebuild those in the west saw what was happening in the east and were grateful for the opportunity they had.
Yes, It was. But what made it come back (and I am speaking of West Germany) was not “levelling” it, but the chances offered afterwards. Rather than running it to the ground following the Morgenthau Plan it was given the chance to rebuild as a democratic nation. Not necessarily out of nicety by the Western Allies but by fear of a communist domino effect; but the thing worked, and after decades of inflation, socio-economical turmoil and authoritanism, Germany’s society received a chance to join the “free” world. This is my point: Stomping on a society and not giving it a chance to develop again will not achieve anything. Versailles has proven that quite clearly.
Many in the mid east are grateful for the opportunities westernization brings. Many are not grateful are are causing problems.
When they hit rock bottom perhaps they will be able to turn it around.
I hope electing Hamas and the subsequent problems will be rock bottom and they will turn it around.
As much as I agree with you (and I don’t often do that), I also believe that Hamas is most probably not the right choice for the Palestinians - and I guess the next months will prove that. But it is the democratic and free choice - and therefore it is to be respected and accepted.
If the Middle East is to embrace “western” values - and I don’t agree that they have to adapt to them - we have to accept their decisions. “Flattening” them - as others have suggested - will not help anyone, but giving them a realistic hope and chance to develop freely and democratically will.
Oh my, I sound like a neocon - just that I don’t believe in bringing democracy by the sword… 
Makkun[/quote]
I think things will get far worse in the Middle East with Hamas in power. It doesn’t seem like this election will lead to any improvment at all.
Whether the are elected by a free and democratic process is not as important as the stated goals they have.
If they can’t coexist then the stronger nation will prevail.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Since the USA will shut off the cash, they’re going to have big problems.
Who the hell do they think was paying all their bills? The US taxpayer!!
Our reward was that they vote terrorists into power.
I’m saying: Level this f’in’ place or be levelled!
[/quote]
You keep babbling about shutting of cash. What cash? You act like you fund the world but you don’t.
How much money did you spend paying their bills? Do you know? Or do you just shoot off at the mouth?
Makkun, I am not proposing leveling the mideast, merely poining out that Germany was leveled before their surrender.
If Germany was not leveled and a peace was reached without their surrender I don’t know what kind of government they would have today.
While it is true that at the end of world war two half of Germany’s industry lay in ruins.
It’s also true that during world war two Germany doubled it’s industrial capacity.
So Germany finished the war with just as much industrial capacity as it had in 1939. This is the overlooked aspect of the postwar German economic miracle.
Plus a lot of the wrecked factories had salvagable machinery.
The Palestinians are in a far worse position than the Germans at the end of ww2.
Although we might not like Hamas this probably something that the Palestinians needed to do as a logical evolution of their society.
Power is a double edged sword. Hamas is going to have to deliver or people are going to get fed up with Hamas.
If there are Hamas attacks on Israel now, the Isreali’s will be able to blame the government.
Here is an interesting article about Russia’s Muslim’s.
It appears that not every Imam in Islam is an Islamic Pat Robertson.
Some interesting observations from GMU law prof David Bernstein (in case you couldn’t tell from his last name, he’s Jewish, and from reading his writings I know he is very pro Israel):
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_01_22-2006_01_28.shtml#1138298119
[David Bernstein, January 26, 2006 at 12:55pm]
Further Thoughts on the Hamas Victory:
(1) This is a victory for terrorists, but not necessarily for terrorism. Or to put it another way, whichever side won, it would have been at least a partial victory for terrorism. First of all, Hamas has more or less observed to a cease-fire with Israel for the last six months. It’s resounding victory can be seen in part to as an endorsement of that policy. Second, as I noted previously, the most popular Fatah figure, Marwan Barghouti, is himself a terrorist, as were other Fatah candidates.
In fact, Debka published a campaign photo allegedly circulated by Fatah showing Barghouti in a jailhouse embrace with a terrorist convicted of murdering schoolchildren in Israel in 1970s. Not to mention that the lethal Al Asqa Brigades are still affiliated with Fatah. A Palestinian voter wishing to vote against terrorism really didn’t have much to and choose from between Fatah and Hamas. But Palestinian polls showed that 54% of Hamas voters want to reach a peace agreement with Israel.
(2) If I were voting in the Palestinian elections, I would have been sorely tempted to vote for Hamas, even if I rejected their Islamicist views and their policies toward Israel. This is because the Palestinian Authority is one of the most corrupt and incompetent governments in the world. The PA has received billions of dollars in foreign aid but one would be hard-pressed to find a single school, hospital, park, or other public building built by the PA with that money.
The money has disappeared either into the hands of corrupt officials, or into paying salaries to the tens of thousands of Palestinians who work for the government, who do basically nothing but are thus bought off by Fatah. Indeed, the election results almost certainly overestimate the PA’s real support because assumedly government patronage employees and their dependents voted for Fatah.
Because of the PA’s low standing among the Palestinian public, it probably was not capable of reaching any kind of agreement with Israel, much less disarming Hamas and Jihad, and even if it were capable of reaching such agreement, it would not have had any legitimacy among the public.
(3) On the other hand, if Hamas decides to negotiate with Israel, any agreement it reaches will have legitimacy among the Palestinian public. Why might Hamas change its views toward recognizing Israel and cease engaging in terrorism? Now it is responsible for the welfare of the Palestinian public. The Israeli government has not used even a fraction of its retaliatory capability against the Palestinians.
If Hamas encourages or even tolerates terrorism, Israel can start by refusing to transfer taxes paid to Palestinians by Israeli companies to the PA. Israel can also shut off the electric grid, the water supply, cell phone service, close the borders to Palestinian goods heading to Israel and Europe, etc. Hezbollah now rarely attacks Israel because it knows that Israel will retaliate by bombing power stations in Beirut, and the Lebanese public will blame it for their suffering. Similarly, if every time a Qassam missile lands in Israel, the electricity goes off in Gaza for a week, it might not be very long before no more Qassams land in Israel.
Israel couldn’t engage in such tactics with the PA because the government had too much international legitimacy, however undeserved, and because Israel still has some hope that not being in an official state of war with the PA, and having the relatively moderate Abbas as president, a deal could still be worked out. But if Hamas doesn’t change its stripes, Israel won’t hesitate to wreak havoc on the Palestinian areas.
Hamas will not be able to play the double game that Arafat was able to play of negotiating talking peace while keeping terrorist groups on a long leash; nor will it be able to get Europe and the US to restrain Israeli military action, as Abbas has, on the premise that it just need a little more time to organize itself against terrorism.
(4) Related to the above posts, the Palestinian authority is broke, and without the transfer of Israeli tax money and European and US foreign aid, it’s not all clear how Hamas is going to pay thousands of armed Fatah men on the PA payroll, much less pay its own civil servants and otherwise run the government. The only way to get this money will be to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel.
Hamas, I believe, would have much preferred to have received the 45% of vote that was predicted. That would have given them the ability to block the PA from disarming them, would have ensured they would have received several ministerial portfolios, but still not left them responsible ultimately for the welfare of the Palestinian public.
(5) If Hamas turns out to be unwilling to turn itself into a non-terrorist movement that Israel can reasonably deal with, Israel will have no choice but to absolutely destroy the Palestinian government. If that’s what happens, the international community may need to rethink the whole idea of a sovereign Palestinian state. Professor Inbar of Bar Ilan University has suggested that Gaza should be confederated with Egypt, and the West Bank with Jordan, with these governments, which have peace treaties with Israel, having security responsibility.
In my opinion, such a plan would make Palestinian independence/autonomy much more viable from both a political and economic perspective. It would obviously take significant change international attitudes to move toward that solution, but an unrepentant Hamas terrorist government in the Palestinian areas might just move opinion in that direction.
[quote]hedo wrote:
makkun wrote:
Zap Branigan,
Zap Branigan wrote:
…
Germany was flattened during the war. This was absolute rock bottom for any society. They had nowhere to go but up. When it was time to rebuild those in the west saw what was happening in the east and were grateful for the opportunity they had.
Yes, It was. But what made it come back (and I am speaking of West Germany) was not “levelling” it, but the chances offered afterwards. Rather than running it to the ground following the Morgenthau Plan it was given the chance to rebuild as a democratic nation. Not necessarily out of nicety by the Western Allies but by fear of a communist domino effect; but the thing worked, and after decades of inflation, socio-economical turmoil and authoritanism, Germany’s society received a chance to join the “free” world. This is my point: Stomping on a society and not giving it a chance to develop again will not achieve anything. Versailles has proven that quite clearly.
Many in the mid east are grateful for the opportunities westernization brings. Many are not grateful are are causing problems.
When they hit rock bottom perhaps they will be able to turn it around.
I hope electing Hamas and the subsequent problems will be rock bottom and they will turn it around.
As much as I agree with you (and I don’t often do that), I also believe that Hamas is most probably not the right choice for the Palestinians - and I guess the next months will prove that. But it is the democratic and free choice - and therefore it is to be respected and accepted.
If the Middle East is to embrace “western” values - and I don’t agree that they have to adapt to them - we have to accept their decisions. “Flattening” them - as others have suggested - will not help anyone, but giving them a realistic hope and chance to develop freely and democratically will.
Oh my, I sound like a neocon - just that I don’t believe in bringing democracy by the sword…
Makkun
I think things will get far worse in the Middle East with Hamas in power. It doesn’t seem like this election will lead to any improvment at all.
Whether the are elected by a free and democratic process is not as important as the stated goals they have.
If they can’t coexist then the stronger nation will prevail.
[/quote]
I don’t think that this point necessarily disagrees with Zap’s stance. One way or another, the Hamas will fall flat on its face. This will occur either through incompetent administration or by military backlash from Israel. Ultimately, the result will still be the same. Hamas will discredit itself with the typical Palestinian by failing to produce results much the same way that the PLO did.
Todd
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Since the USA will shut off the cash, they’re going to have big problems.
Who the hell do they think was paying all their bills? The US taxpayer!!
Our reward was that they vote terrorists into power.
I’m saying: Level this f’in’ place or be levelled!
You keep babbling about shutting of cash. What cash? You act like you fund the world but you don’t.
How much money did you spend paying their bills? Do you know? Or do you just shoot off at the mouth?[/quote]
The US and the EU kick in huge piles of cash to the Palestinians. It was a big part of the Clinton peace plan.
Perhaps you know how much?
I believe that this will further seperate the Muslim World from the West and EU. This is a recipe for certain disaster. This now will show the other Arab states that terrorism is an accepted party and approach within a democracy.
Why would we want to democratize any of these religious fanatics anymore. I now believe that this particular sector of human life can not handle running a true government ever.
This is going to really force EVERYONE in the world to truly pick sides.
BB
That article lays out the situation pretty well.
The PLA could turn a bling eye towards terrorist actions or support them behind the scenes. Now that the terrorist organization has become the government I don’t think Israel will show as much restraint. Unless Hamas changes the goals they have regarding destroying Israel and driving the Israeli’s away, I don’t think they will be treated with much symapthy.
I heard a comment today that the situation has gone from State sponsored terrorism to a terrorist sponsored state. Terrorists with an address don’t last too long.
[quote]grey wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Our reward was that they vote terrorists into power.
I’m saying: Level this f’in’ place or be levelled!
Let’s level your neighbourhood into the ground along with all your inbred redneck relatives.
It’s people like you who keep terrorism alive.
Fool.
[/quote]
Very true. Headhunter, you have eventually realize the error of your ways. We will never, ever “level” all these countries.
You are talking out your ass on this. First of all, the people of this country would not stand for it. George II has pushed his powers as far as they are going to get him, and he does not have the people’s confidence to get into a protracted war.
Secondly, what part of a “world war” don’t you understand? Are you looking forward to the book of revelations, where the great army from the west meets the eastern threat? Cause I’m not. You are being completely irrational in every way. The US could go into every country, demolish their governments, and impose martial law.
However, this does not mean 1) we should 2)The muslim world (the fastest growing religion, I might add) would not turn and attack the troops there in a massive Jihad 3) that even if we won in the short term, we would be draining ourselves, just as we are in Iraq.
And let’s say we use nuclear weapons…then we are nuking countries because they don’t agree with us, and may or may not, possibly, maybe, be contributing people who may or may not be terrorists. Gimme a break.
I understand your ideas, and I respect them, but you serously are really leaning to the fascist right again. It is a slippery slope between patriotism, nationalism, and imperialism. Careful…
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The good news is Hamas will be forced to deal with all the issues a government has to deal with. When they prove themselves incompetent the Palestinian people will realize they have been dealing with the devil.[/quote]
Slight hijack, but Chirac’s statements make much more sense in this regard, IMO. Thanks.
“The Q’uran forbids democracy.”
Uh, no it doesn’t. The height of the Muslim empire was during the middle ages when their empire was a full-fledged democracy when even women had the right to vote. Many of our mankind’s scientific discoveries come from this period. Muslim Spain at this time was the leading place (intellectually) on earth. Christians from Europe were flocking to Spain to study with the and learn from the Muslims. This time period in Spain is also referred to as the “Golden Age” in Jewish history. This was when Christian Europe was ass-backwards.
The problem started when some time in the 15th or 16th century the muslims started reverting back to fundamentalism and turned their backs on science and they’ve been on a downward spiral since (except in muslim countries like Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia which are pretty progressive).
Headhunter, you from Texas BTW???
Greetings!!!
reckless,
Are you pleased that hamas won the election?
Yes or no will do.
JeffR
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
k.elkouhen wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The Q’uran forbids democracy. You must surrender your mind to the will of Allah. Since the will of Allah supercedes any human will, the Q’uran supercedes any human government. This is why any attempt to democratize and/or civilize these countries must fail.
You, my friend, are talking through your hat.
Much like Nazi Germany, these countries simply need to be levelled, install huge numbers of troops, and take 20 years to rebuild.
Again, you are talking through your hat.
Is that better than talking through my turban 
? Actually, rather than just saying and repeating this, how about some real intellectual input.
[/quote]
You offered none. Why return any?
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
“The Q’uran forbids democracy.”
Uh, no it doesn’t. The height of the Muslim empire was during the middle ages when their empire was a full-fledged democracy when even women had the right to vote.
How is an empire a full-fledged democracy?
Wouldn’t the election of the president of Iran and now the election of Hamas be an indicator of overt declaration of war on the West by Islam? You do not win wars through diplomacy but rather by violence.
I do not think we need to ‘level’ these places but be more confrontational. Being quite familiar with Arab culture, being kind and gentle is intrepeted as weakness. This will invite only more terror.
[quote]Kina Mutai wrote:
OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
“The Q’uran forbids democracy.”
Uh, no it doesn’t. The height of the Muslim empire was during the middle ages when their empire was a full-fledged democracy when even women had the right to vote.
How is an empire a full-fledged democracy?[/quote]
This sounds fishy to me.
[quote]Kina Mutai wrote:
Wouldn’t the election of the president of Iran and now the election of Hamas be an indicator of overt declaration of war on the West by Islam? You do not win wars through diplomacy but rather by violence.
I do not think we need to ‘level’ these places but be more confrontational. Being quite familiar with Arab culture, being kind and gentle is intrepeted as weakness. This will invite only more terror.[/quote]
You have to remember the Iranian Mullahs disqualified all the reform candidates before the election. The Iranian people were left with little choice.
I see this as a beautiful development on the world stage. Palestine now has a democratically elected government, and therefore a legitimate one (theoretically) in the eyes of western culture. This would (hopefully) mean that if Hamas were to take any destructive action against other states there would be little hesitation on the part of the world community to intervene.
My hope is that Hamas will fracture into competing contingents - ultimately resulting in civil war. Not a happy thing to hope for, but I think it would present some opportunity for actula reform to take place.
In all reality though, somebody - either the israelis or the palestinians - will do something stupid and encite more conflict. And the cycle of false hope and disappointment will start over yet again.
Just out of interest, is anyone else keen on the idea of turning the israel-palestine area into a UN police state until these people can behave like adults again?