T Nation

Attempting to Buy Peace


As has just been demonstrated in Palestine, we cannot buy peace. At least now, millions of our tax dollars won't continue to go to those who hate us. (Unless a democrat wins in '08 -- they'll probably INCREASE the foreign aid to these vermin.)



I can only guess that you are referring to the expected win of Hamas in the Palestinian elections: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4649606.stm

I am as sceptical of having a group like Hamas in government as anyone, but it seems to have been a legitimate democratic election. Respecting that is important, and we should give any democratically elected government the benefit of the doubt. Especially if we want a region like the Middle East to "democratise".



On the surface a Hamas win is bad news but I don't think it is.

A Hamas win confirms the mindset of the Palestinian people. We alrady knew they were brainwashed. This win does not make it worse than it was last week.

The good news is Hamas will be forced to deal with all the issues a government has to deal with. When they prove themselves incompetent the Palestinian people will realize they have been dealing with the devil.


The Q'uran forbids democracy. You must surrender your mind to the will of Allah. Since the will of Allah supercedes any human will, the Q'uran supercedes any human government. This is why any attempt to democratize and/or civilize these countries must fail. Their mind-set has been designed for a dictatorship, since Muslims are taught to give up their will to a nebulous, all-powerful being.

Much like Nazi Germany, these countries simply need to be levelled, install huge numbers of troops, and take 20 years to rebuild.

The problem is that power has devolved in favor of the defense. The USA no longer has the power to do this, as in Germany and Japan.


Good point Zap. Hpefully this is exactly what happens.


You, my friend, are talking through your hat.

Again, you are talking through your hat.


Great point, and great attitude to have, Zap. It may be a blessing in disguise.


Is that better than talking through my turban :slightly_smiling: ? Actually, rather than just saying and repeating this, how about some real intellectual input.


You sound like a fascist. And as dysfunctional as Islam is, do you really think an outside power, even one as powerful as 1945 America, could impose its will on 20% of the world's population by armed force? We're having enough trouble in Iraq alone.



I think you have a needlessly bad view of muslims and Islam. You know as well as I do, that you can twist and distort any religion (or philosophy) so that it creates monsters and terrorists. We've seen (and sometimes still see) that with Christianity as much as we see it with Islam.

Hm, fortunately that is not what happened with Germany - after the war at least half of it was given a chance for democracy, pluralism and freedom, not "levelled". And pretty much the same happened with Japan. It was understanding and helping back on to a path of democracy rather than stomping on people that made them democrats.



Germany was flattened during the war. This was absolute rock bottom for any society. They had nowhere to go but up. When it was time to rebuild those in the west saw what was happening in the east and were grateful for the opportunity they had.

Many in the mid east are grateful for the opportunities westernization brings. Many are not grateful are are causing problems.

When they hit rock bottom perhaps they will be able to turn it around.

I hope electing Hamas and the subsequent problems will be rock bottom and they will turn it around.


What Palestine? There is not Palestine. That's the problem.

What millions? You guys don't give millions. You give billions to Israel, but not millions to the Palestines.

What this shows is that you have to be carefull with what you wish for. You wanted free elections in the Middle-East. Well, this is one free election in the Middle-East.
Now you don't like the outcome. Well, tough luck.

I don't think Hamas will proove incompetent. Inexperienced perhaps, but not incompetent. They'll have to moderate their views if they want to do something about the situation.

Now if the US could find the guts to order the Israeli's to moderate their position, we might actually get things done there.


Since the USA will shut off the cash, they're going to have big problems.
Who the hell do they think was paying all their bills? The US taxpayer!!

Our reward was that they vote terrorists into power.

I'm saying: Level this f'in' place or be levelled!


You're wrong about cause and effect. They hit rock bottem decades ago. That's why they voted for Hamas, out of frustration.


Yawn... (1) The US is no where near its military potential. If we went all out, we could easily conquer all those shit-hole countries. (2) Me telling you that terrorists wish to kill you and can't be swayed does not make me a fascist.



Zap --

Israel can take the terrorism for only so long with all of the funding training and support Hamas gets from arabs around the ME. The jews might as well unconditionally accept the pal's demands , because palestenians are growing faster within israel than the jews...so they will have to make concessions sooner or later.


Headhunter doesnt like muslims and people with Turbans.... hahahaha Im sure they dont like you much either!


Things are getting progressively worse over there. They did not hit bottom decades ago or things would be getting better now.

I doubt anyone will say things are better now than they were decades ago.


That COULD happen but it won't.

You're still talking through your hat...

Wake me up when you say something worth intellectual input.


Zap Branigan,

Yes, It was. But what made it come back (and I am speaking of West Germany) was not "levelling" it, but the chances offered afterwards. Rather than running it to the ground following the Morgenthau Plan it was given the chance to rebuild as a democratic nation. Not necessarily out of nicety by the Western Allies but by fear of a communist domino effect; but the thing worked, and after decades of inflation, socio-economical turmoil and authoritanism, Germany's society received a chance to join the "free" world. This is my point: Stomping on a society and not giving it a chance to develop again will not achieve anything. Versailles has proven that quite clearly.

As much as I agree with you (and I don't often do that), I also believe that Hamas is most probably not the right choice for the Palestinians - and I guess the next months will prove that. But it is the democratic and free choice - and therefore it is to be respected and accepted.

If the Middle East is to embrace "western" values - and I don't agree that they have to adapt to them - we have to accept their decisions. "Flattening" them - as others have suggested - will not help anyone, but giving them a realistic hope and chance to develop freely and democratically will.

Oh my, I sound like a neocon - just that I don't believe in bringing democracy by the sword... :wink: