I can only imagine the fall out from this topic being discussed here. After reading this story I became nauseous. We liberate these people and they attack non-combatants. Regardless of how bad others see us as a nation, you will not see us desecrate the dead in this way. It is uncivilized. I have walked through the dead and would never have done that to bodies regardless of nationality. I would not have been allowed to. Maybe we are not being ruthless enough?
I don’t even know what to say besides what the fuck is wrong with these people. The one that gets to me is the photo with the kids celebrating in front of the bridge where the bodies are strung up.
We are too nice as a society. We could just nuke the entire Sunni Triangle tonight and stop 99% of the insurgent attacks in Iraq, but we won’t and the scum knows it. We should just arm the shit out of everyone but the Sunni’s, pack our stuff up and leave tomorrow. Give the Kurds some mustard gas maybe.
First off let me say that I too became nauseous, but I watched the video clip of it all; it was much more graphic than the pictures or story. I wouldn’t recommend it.
Secondly we need to remember that the United States has killed thousands of Iraqi civilians over the past twelve years. There is probably hardly a person in Iraq that doesn’t have a relative or a friend who was killed in the past two wars.
Saddam Hussein was much worse than the US has been or ever will be to civilians, but he IS an Iraqi. The US troops are foreign to these people and that just aggrevates the hatred towards the United States and its associates.
If I was there and had the means, I would have tried to help the people in the convoy, and would have probably died trying. But my point of this is that they (the Iraqis) are not animals. They are people like you and I are. They are frustrated that they have had to suffer all of the wars over the past two and a half decades.
Once we start dehumanizung the people whom we are trying to help worse things will happen than what happened today.
Btw I am not pretending to have any answers to this problem. What happened today further illustrates how complicated the problem is. I just hope that we can somehow instill a spirit of democracy in the people of Iraq, because as long as we don’t have the vast majority of the people on the same page as us, the war will never end.
You gotta understand… they don’t see this as a liberation… to them this is sacrilege. Their goverment is as much part of their lifes as is their religion. Until WE start to understand their paradigms we will always be in conflict. We just can’t go and impose our culture, policies, etc. on peolples who haven’t asked to be liberated… as sickening as it may be, these are countries accostumed to war
I restate, THEY SEEMED PRETTY HAPPY WHEN WE ROLLED INTO THOSE CITIES. I don’t really know what cheering, cries of joy, kissing my hands, and hugging me means in their culture, but I kinda think it means the Iraqis are happy.
PtrDR, that was a worthless statement, please say things that have some relevance and do not insult an entire culture based on some individuals’ actions. Yes they did do despicable things, but if the roles were reversed and they were trying to impose their governmental ideas on us (religion is the government etc.) to them it would be liberating us, but we really wouldn’t see it the same now would we?
Your statement typifies the common view of Islam that most Americans have. Since we are currently involved in nation building in two Islamic countries I for one believe that people like you are helping Islamic fundalmentalists by being ignorant and judgemental about the 2nd most popular religion in the world. Just because SOME Muslims chose to kill people, does not make all Muslims intolerant and violent.
I could go on and on about how Christians have murdered, raped, pillaged, burned, and tortured numerous peoples, but then who wants a lesson in the crusades, the inquisition, the reformation etc etc etc.
BTW I am not anti-christian, anti-hebrew, anti-muslim, anti-gay, anti-conservative…just anti-intolerance/hatred/racism etc. If some people just took a little time to educate themselves, this world would be a lot less violent.
There is no amount of “understanding” that can explain or justify this behavior. It was barbaric. Period.
The so-called rebels, who will accomplish nothing by their attacks on Americans, are the first to blame. The element of Iraqi society that engaged in the brutal display of inhumanity, as wll as all those in the world that would seek to justify or explain it away are the next.
You were in Iraq? If so then I want to thank you for serving our nation and putting yourself in harms way for the rest of us.
But just something to keep in mind is that Iraq is a highly diverse/stratified country and one town can be very different from the next. I do not doubt that many towns were happy to see the arrival of US forces, but as apparent today, not everyone is happy with the US to say the least.
First of all let me start by saying that I was not trying to justify what these people did in any sort of way. Secondly I won’t pretend that I can explain anything that is going on in Iraq. All I can do is try to step outside of our cushy borders and at least TRY to look at some things from an Iraqi’s perspecttive. I agree that it was barbaric, but so is war. War makes people do horrible, inconcievable things that they would never do on a normal basis.
The Iraqis have known little but war, famine, and fear for a very long time now. The young Iraqis, who are most likely to be in the insurgency, have known NOTHING but war their entire lives.
I guess that my point is that there is hardly anyone in the US that has known violence and war as long as the common Iraqi. Therefore, although I despise what happened today, it is hard to me just to say, “Fuck them all!” We don’t have enough soldiers to combat what would happen if this became policy.
What we are doing, what I think is more or less working, is we are taking out the leaders of the rebel groups and trying to win the hearts and minds of the common Iraqi, by giving them a chance at sovereignty.
btw Littlejay- I know that when you say “Fuck them all!” ,you aren’t talking about all Muslims. I was just making a point and taking you slightly out of context. There is just a group of people on this board who constantly say, “let’s just make a parking lot out of Iraq”-those people are whom I am addressing.
LIttlejay, it’s hard to understand but I guess that’s where everything begins. Different cultures have different paradigms and different views of the world. Like most people here I haven’t had the chance to travel to Iraq and we go by what the media, books and our own understanding of Islam gives us.
Some people are horrified by what’s going on there, just imagine also what Palestians have had to endure also… Unfortunately we’re brought up to believe that our values should be everyone else’s values, and that our view of the world should be everyone else’s… It’s not like that. It’s like training, some people like high reps, some people like low reps, some people like periodization, some people like HDT, some peole do 'roids, some don’t. Who’s got the truth? The only bad thing about this is that many people are getting killed… innocent people from both sides.
Kike, some really good points. Although I am not a relativist, and I don’t necessarily believe that different paradigms are “incommensurable,” it is really important to at least try to see each view from an objective standpoint (some would argue that even that is impossible). Even though I am a definite advocate of democracy, this is something foriegn to these people, and although I think it is worth our efforts to help create a democracy in Iraq, I also think it’s necessary to make sure that it’s done in the most tactful and understanding way possible–and just exactly what that way is, I am not sure of.
I was shaking in revulsion and anger. Every person who participated in that film, should be brought in for “questioning.” I like that. I heard that today from one of our officials. We would like to “question” those involved.
I have zero patience with the people who think we should “try to understand the motives.” Bullshit, those people on that tape are not representative of Islam or the Iraqi people. There needs to be a lot of “questioning.”
Not responding with devastating force after the Black Hawk Down tragedy was a mistake. George W. will not make the same mistake.
all the happy horseshit PC dribble cannot account for the shear brutality of this. The ability to restrain ourselves from our animalistic urges is what makes us human- it is what builds a society. Whereas those involved in this horrid act did no such thing- they let their animalistic desires control them. They took fear or hatred or whatever they are feeling for the US and let it fester until they became animals. They can be called nothing but animals for such an act. if an american had done something like this he would be called an animal- and it would be correct. but ppls efforts to be understanding and caring are clouding their views concerning this act. those involved are nothing more than animals. not all iraqis are like these ppl, so not all iraqis are animals- do not mistake what I am saying as such. not all muslims or middle easterners are like these ppl, so they are not animals- do not mistake what I am saying as such. These individuals are animals- any being that would dismember another for any reason other than food, much less for public display, is an animal. I dont care what has happened to them, there is no justification for killing non-combatants and dismembering some and dragging the bodies through the streets like rabid dogs and hanging them for all to see like some primate claiming territory. No excuse.