[quote]hlss09 wrote:
[quote]hlss09 wrote:
great article - thanks brick[/quote]
What do you do for a living by the way Brick?[/quote]
Registered Dietitian. Undergrad in nutrition and masters in nutrition and exercise physiology.
hlss,
I don’t do PMs on here, but when the hubs come back up, you’ll see my contact info. You can email me through regular email or contact and “friend” me on FB if you like.
I like what Its Just Me and Professor X say here.
However, I don’t disagree TJD because I’m not sure what hlss’s goal is because either I don’t remember it from reading his other posts if he mentioned it or if he didn’t mention it at all.
So H, what’s your ultimate goal?
If he wants to be big and athletic, well then he’ll get a blend of both, but won’t get as big as if he just sticks with strictly bodybuilding training. If he excepts this blend of results, then that’s fine. And in that case, he does have plenty of time (20s to 50s) to enjoy this hobby of his.
If he wants to be the best bodybuilder he can be, then I’m with X - there’s not so much time to work with if you want to wind up being as big as you possibly can.
As I’ve said ad nauseum, my current goals are general health and fitness and decent body composition and some athleticism (I like to play a lot of recreational sports now and do a lot of running now). This doesn’t require gut wrenching effort and the sort of determination and dedication I had when trying to get big.
So therefore, I’m not in the gym as much, don’t eat as much or as good as I used to. This brings me ordinary results in size and body composition.
AND I ACCEPT THIS!
I’M FINE WITH IT!
So what do you want and what will you accept?
cool. I’m thinking about trying out some new nutrition strategies. When I can see the hubs again, I’ll find you on FB or something like you said. Are messages not working by the way? I sent some messages and my inbox/sent messages seem to be messed up
I don’t know why PMs have not worked for me for two years.
Dude, why are you gonna try new stuff? If I remember correctly, you already have a basic plan - something like a typical lifestyle diet-gaining diet with one day of a modified fast.
Try not to be all over the place with diet and training.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
EVEN IF you have the genetics for this…[/quote]
(Caps mine.)
This right here is what a lot of people speak too lightly on as well - like all this talk of “well, he has the genetics for this; he can just go into a gym, hardly lift, and look like that” and “he can just look at/smell weights and grow”.
Uh, no! That’s not how it works. Can anyone point out to me one elite athlete or bodybuilder who got by on genetics alone?! The ones who relied too heavily on genetics because of arrogance, ignorance (didn’t know what the fuck they were doing or didn’t listen to anyone), and laziness got the placings they deserved in the end (eg, Paul Dillet, Flex Wheeler), even placign behind people with LESSER genetics!
Same goes with Herschel Walker. I remember some talk in soem other thread about how he looks so muscular because of his genetics despite low intake. I highly doubt - though I could be wrong - that this guy eats as lightly as he says, even if he is telling the truth about eatign only in the evening. I especially doubt he GREW TO (not maintained) that size while eating so lightly. Maybe he’s lying, maybe he isn’t. But a lot of people in the fitness and athletics world fucking LIE!
I agree with making gaining a priority. There is nothing to say though that you can not work on some athleticism in the mean time. You don’t need to be doing drills and conditioning work every day, but once a week where you dedicate a day to doing activities that require some form of athleticism won’t do harm.
For example once a week I dedicate an hour to purely basketball. I work on things like explosiveness off the dribble, vertical jumps in the form of lay-ups/dunks, shot rhythm, ranged shooting coordination, speed to the basket off a shot, etc.
I might not be a college ball player but I’m far from lacking athleticism @ 5’11 205 lbs. If you know what you are doing, you can achieve both. But it’s suggested that you will have to prioritise gaining over athleticism. Get to a suitable size first before you ramp up the other.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
You need to decide what your priorities are. Do you want to get big and muscular? Or lean, small and athletic…stop trying to do both at the same time (you very likely don’t have the genetics for it). Bear in mind that you are posting on a bodybuilding forum where most are not concerned about performance other than getting stronger bigger (and leaner at times).
You are 6’2", weigh 175lbs, lean, and are young = very hard to put on weight.
You need to focus on getting your bodyweight up (eat enough), and do minimal energy work other than weight training.
This is bodybuilding 101 - if you don’t think this is important, you’re in the wrong forum 
By all means try out your HIIT for a while, but keep the sessions short, and if you’re really stuggling to put on weight, drop them.[/quote]
I actually have to disagree with you and everyone else. Granted, this is a bodybuilding forum, so I agree with what you say for a bodybuilder. That is, training for athletic performance won’t be a smart move if your goal is to compete soon.
But a 6’2" 175 lb dude can absolutely put on weight while trying to get more athletic. It shouldn’t even be hard if he has the time to put in. Sure, he’ll probably sacrifice a small amount of size, but if you want to get big and athletic, you train to get big and you train to get athletic. Just add the extra work slowly and make sure to up your calories. How hard could it be to outeat 2 HIIT sessions?
You disagree with us ALL when I said the exact same stuff you said in your second paragraph!
I don’t see building muscle and maintaining athletic ability as two competing goals. I think a lot of people are confusing athletic ability with conditioning, and in that case it would be two competing goals. I think of athletic ability as a person’s ability to quickly and efficiently apply their muscular strength, conditioning be damned. I think that if the OP just adds in a small amount of movement efficiency work and light plyos/quickness drills to some of his weight training, there’s no reason he can’t build muscle while maintaining athleticism. Scratch the endless HIIT and conditioning drills because unless you’ve been doing that your whole life and have great genetics, this will be counterproductive.
I would highly recommend some of Kelly Baggett’s stuff. Don’t follow any of his programs specifically because they’re tailored for people trying to increase vertical jump, 40 time, etc. Just take some useful things from his articles (mainly the movement efficiency stuff) and apply them to a more bodybuilding-focused training style.
IMO conditioning is probably the easiest thing to achieve in terms of time investment. While it takes years to build an impressive amount of muscle, a person can to get to a pretty impressive level of conditioning in a much shorter time frame, provided that they don’t let themselves turn into a complete lardass.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
You disagree with us ALL when I said the exact same stuff you said in your second paragraph! [/quote]
Haha sorry brick… the gist I got from your posts was that athletes could do it, but only because they have been training towards that basically their whole lives and because they have lots of time on their hands and also because they have the genetics for it. Seemed like you were recommending against trying it? Or were you saying to try it just be patient?
It’s OK dude.
I was saying both. I myself include some plyos and OL variations in my full body routines these days. I did speed work when I followed a “Westside” program too, even replacing that typical speed work with plyos (plyo pushups and box jumps) when I just needed a change of pace or when I didn’t want a bar on my back or in my hands because of fatigue or to just unload a bit.
We all - including the elite - have to be patient.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with having a blend of training going on, and for most people, it’s a good thing physically and psychologically.
Besides, it’s not like people’s lives on here are dependent on their physical endeavors. So if someone winds up with a bit less muscle and has a blast training and has a great physique and health, then what bad can come out of it?
However, on the flip side, if someone’s is HELL BENT on getting huge - that is, bodybuilder huge - or actually believes they’ll make a living on that sort of thing, then hardcore bodybuilding is in order.
(I’m NOT saying the following “against” Pro X, but simply pointing out some people’s goals and living. And I’m not talking about just monetary living; I’m talking about image, compulsion, and inclination.) If you’re whole persona or “signature” or image is dependent on looking like a bodybuilder, then yeah, you’ll have to train like a bodybuilder as there will be little room to do much other physical activity. Besides, I can’t see how plyos and sprints can be integrated into a bodybuilding program considering that bodybuilding training actually makes sprinting more inefficient and dysfunctional. If someone can explain it to me, I’m all ear (or eyes in this case).
Well guys, to settle some stuff -
What I’m doing isn’t overkill IMO. I’m following CT’s old school OVT plan for the past 6 weeks. I’ve made some good strength gains, and I like the higher volume. The program calls for heavy lifting 4X per week, so on 2 of my off days I’m doing HIIT sessions, and on one of the other off days I’m doing a pulse fast.
Before anyone “flames” me, I’ll just say that I am going for a long, clean bulk. I’m not trying to get big in a hurry. I have certain goals in mind, and getting strong and staying (somewhat) lean are priorities, and plus I like a more athletic build.
As far as nutrition, I did a V-Diet (just to do it I guess, I was never FAT, just a bit pudgy when younger). After the V-Diet I played around with “cutting,” but realized that I need more mass before I can even THINK about cutting. Now, I’m doing a higher carb, low fat diet. My macros, on lifting days, come to:
3,000-3,500 cals
250-350g carb
<100g fat
200-250g protein
I’ve had some decent success, but I’ve been sort of tired and bloated feeling. I tried this diet out for 6 weeks, and not much has changed, so I would like to try an anabolic-ish diet. I read the thread about how Sickabs trains. He mentioned that he does an anabolic type diet, with around 80g carbs a day and he therefore skips the weekend carbup. What do you guys think?
Shugart says to eat around 100-150 g carbs per day, but I began to think (usually not a good thing lol)…If people feel weak and tired on a low carb diet, it’s b/c their body is trying to get fuel from carbs, but they’re not giving their body enough carbs…I think the brain needs 100g per day or something.
So, wouldn’t it be better to go into full ketosis to avoid that whole low carb haze…I, however, like the idea of the 80g per day and no extensive carb-up on the weekend, but maybe one carb meal of about 250g on a saturday night or something. What do you guys think? And would there be any merit to having a FINiBAR as part of those 80 g carbs?
I realize this is the BB forum, but this whole site is fucked up now, so I’m just posting this, b/c I can’t reach any of the “authorities” such as Brick. Thanks guys!
Thanks.
I’m not sure if I’m an authority on nutrition (yet), but I appreciate the compliment very much.
[quote]hlss09 wrote:
Well guys, to settle some stuff -
What I’m doing isn’t overkill IMO. I’m following CT’s old school OVT plan for the past 6 weeks. I’ve made some good strength gains, and I like the higher volume. The program calls for heavy lifting 4X per week, so on 2 of my off days I’m doing HIIT sessions, and on one of the other off days I’m doing a pulse fast.
Before anyone “flames” me, I’ll just say that I am going for a long, clean bulk. I’m not trying to get big in a hurry. I have certain goals in mind, and getting strong and staying (somewhat) lean are priorities, and plus I like a more athletic build.
As far as nutrition, I did a V-Diet (just to do it I guess, I was never FAT, just a bit pudgy when younger). After the V-Diet I played around with “cutting,” but realized that I need more mass before I can even THINK about cutting. Now, I’m doing a higher carb, low fat diet. My macros, on lifting days, come to:
3,000-3,500 cals
250-350g carb
<100g fat
200-250g protein
I’ve had some decent success, but I’ve been sort of tired and bloated feeling. I tried this diet out for 6 weeks, and not much has changed, so I would like to try an anabolic-ish diet. I read the thread about how Sickabs trains. He mentioned that he does an anabolic type diet, with around 80g carbs a day and he therefore skips the weekend carbup. What do you guys think?
Shugart says to eat around 100-150 g carbs per day, but I began to think (usually not a good thing lol)…If people feel weak and tired on a low carb diet, it’s b/c their body is trying to get fuel from carbs, but they’re not giving their body enough carbs…I think the brain needs 100g per day or something.
So, wouldn’t it be better to go into full ketosis to avoid that whole low carb haze…I, however, like the idea of the 80g per day and no extensive carb-up on the weekend, but maybe one carb meal of about 250g on a saturday night or something. What do you guys think? And would there be any merit to having a FINiBAR as part of those 80 g carbs?
I realize this is the BB forum, but this whole site is fucked up now, so I’m just posting this, b/c I can’t reach any of the “authorities” such as Brick. Thanks guys! [/quote]
I don’t think you should do a ketogenic diet for gaining especially if a goal of yours is performance. Of course you could make it work. Your macro breakdown looks pretty reasonable; although fat might be a little high. What is your bf level? What are your food sources? How close do you come to hitting your macro goals every day? What has your weight been doing? I have a feeling that if you tightened everything up, everything would fall into place. If you are being extremely strict then there are a few different things you could try before going extremely low carb which should be a last resort.
If you decide to use a finibar at all, use it preworkout. There isn’t anything inherently magical about the carbs in a finibar; they just sit well in most people’s stomachs and are a decent combination of carbs to fuel a workout.
As far a Shugart goes, I can’t say anything bad about him because he has had success in his area… but remember that his area is mostly fat people that want to get to a “normal” weight and then maintain. I am sure he is knowledgeable in other areas, but his advice caters to that niche.
I can’t really comment on sickabs bc I didn’t read the thread.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Besides, I can’t see how plyos and sprints can be integrated into a bodybuilding program considering that bodybuilding training actually makes sprinting more inefficient and dysfunctional. If someone can explain it to me, I’m all ear (or eyes in this case). [/quote]
Higher intensity plyometrics can be easily integrated into most programs when used to develop power and reactionary power. But please note that I am NOT talking about the typical crossfit plyos that many people are doing now, e.g. jumping onto a 24" box 100 times without rest. To develop power, plyometrics should be extremely low volume and actually prime the nervous system. Sprinting is another story…
That being said, at a high level of competition, training becomes more specific. This is why there are many multisport athletes in highschool but almost none professionally. At beginner levels of sports with crossover skills, training techniques can be extremely similar. At this level, strength, size, and speed all go hand in hand.
So what I am saying is that for very advanced trainees, I agree. For beginners/intermediates, getting faster can be a byproduct of getting stronger and bigger.
Brick pretty much covered everything.
Just wanted to ask why you’re going to drastically change your diet? I don’t think a low-carb diet is conducive to gaining weight or muscle–at least in my experience. Even during my last weeks of contest preparation I kept my carbs at 30% of my daily calories on most days. Everyone is different, but in my experience carbs are one the most anabolic macronutrients and I certainly wouldn’t lower than below 20% of daily calories.
[quote]Fezzik wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Besides, I can’t see how plyos and sprints can be integrated into a bodybuilding program considering that bodybuilding training actually makes sprinting more inefficient and dysfunctional. If someone can explain it to me, I’m all ear (or eyes in this case). [/quote]
Higher intensity plyometrics can be easily integrated into most programs when used to develop power and reactionary power. But please note that I am NOT talking about the typical crossfit plyos that many people are doing now, e.g. jumping onto a 24" box 100 times without rest. To develop power, plyometrics should be extremely low volume and actually prime the nervous system. Sprinting is another story…
That being said, at a high level of competition, training becomes more specific. This is why there are many multisport athletes in highschool but almost none professionally. At beginner levels of sports with crossover skills, training techniques can be extremely similar. At this level, strength, size, and speed all go hand in hand.
So what I am saying is that for very advanced trainees, I agree. For beginners/intermediates, getting faster can be a byproduct of getting stronger and bigger.[/quote]
What use would plyos have in a BB program? And how would they be integrated into splits that involve bodypart sessions?
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]Fezzik wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Besides, I can’t see how plyos and sprints can be integrated into a bodybuilding program considering that bodybuilding training actually makes sprinting more inefficient and dysfunctional. If someone can explain it to me, I’m all ear (or eyes in this case). [/quote]
Higher intensity plyometrics can be easily integrated into most programs when used to develop power and reactionary power. But please note that I am NOT talking about the typical crossfit plyos that many people are doing now, e.g. jumping onto a 24" box 100 times without rest. To develop power, plyometrics should be extremely low volume and actually prime the nervous system. Sprinting is another story…
That being said, at a high level of competition, training becomes more specific. This is why there are many multisport athletes in highschool but almost none professionally. At beginner levels of sports with crossover skills, training techniques can be extremely similar. At this level, strength, size, and speed all go hand in hand.
So what I am saying is that for very advanced trainees, I agree. For beginners/intermediates, getting faster can be a byproduct of getting stronger and bigger.[/quote]
What use would plyos have in a BB program? And how would they be integrated into splits that involve bodypart sessions? [/quote]
There isn’t a direct use for plyos in a traditional BB program. Like I said, plyometrics are used to develop power which has a direct carryover to max strength and speed/quickness, but I don’t think the carryover to bodybuilding gains would be extremely significant. If there was a huge carryover, then every bodybuilder would be doing plyos which few if any do.
If you have any other athletic goals like powerlifting, sprinting, or jumping then they could be beneficial. Many bodybuilders enjoy powerlifting, and some like to run as well.
Plyos can be performed any time you are fresh, but they are particularly awesome between warm up and before a heavy leg session. And like I said before I am talking about using plyometrics to increase power and not conditioning. Usually that means 20-40 jumps MAX with tons of rest between them.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
What use would plyos have in a BB program? And how would they be integrated into splits that involve bodypart sessions? [/quote]
In a purely bodybuilding program they would have no use. For someone who wants to build muscle while still maintaining movement efficiency, they would have plenty of use. I think the problem is that when most people think plyos, they think of p90x or crossfit where they are used almost as a conditioning tool. This is NOT the proper use of them and is extremely foolish in my opinion.
I define athletic ability as someone’s movement efficiency. Most people don’t understand this concept, but think of watching two different people play basketball. One is a college ball player that is quick and can dunk. The other is a 35 year old guy that is just picking the game up again. The college player will make very little sound when he steps and will appear to almost glide effortlessly. The 35 year old will most likely make loud thud noises with every step and appear to be lumbering around. That is a lack of movement efficiency.
Bodybuilding and athletic ability are not mutually exclusive. The reason most people that put on a lot of mass lose their athletic ability (if they ever had any), is because they neglect it. Most athletes get plenty of movement efficiency training simply by playing their sport, which is why their workouts tend to focus mostly on strength and muscle gains. The typical gym-goer who focuses on strength and muscle gains alone will not be doing anything to maintain or improve their movement efficiency, and will therefore become un-athletic lumbering dopes.
All someone needs to do is incorporate brief, low-intensity plyos (NOT depth jumps from insane heights, think basic hops and skips) into their warmups and they will most likely maintain movement efficiency. No HIIT or conditioning drills required; Let the diet determine levels of leanness. It could even be beneficial to include some higher intensity stuff prior to training legs, provided the volume is extremely low. I’m talking like 3 sets of 3 depth jumps.
The key to all of this is that people need to know what they’re doing and already have some athletic ability to begin with. If someone can’t perform a certain movement efficiency drill or plyo movement without making a loud thud when striking the ground, they lack sufficient ability to perform that drill/movement and should move to something less advanced. The truth is the vast majority of people would gain benefit from something simple like jumping rope.
Incorporating low volume, simple drills into a person’s general warmup before each workout will not significantly increase calorie expenditure or muscle fatigue, and should therefore have minimal effect (if any) on any muscle gains.