T Nation

athletic diet

I tried a low carb diet getting the bulk of my cals from fats, natural fats such as eggs, animal fats etc and proteins as reccomended by dr greg ellis in his book Ultimate diet secrets and after private consultation with him. Whilst i lost alot of weight in about 4 months on this diet, i didnt get as ripped as i am now doing the dont diet diet with very clean and lean sources of foods. My performance also suffered a great deal with my carbs being <20% of total calories even after 4 months, sufficient time i think to become fully fat adapted.

NeilG, you mentioned that farmed salmon have almost no omega 3’s as a result of a soy diet. This is bad news to me, since I’ve been buying the cheaper farmed fish on the basis of the USDA nutrient database, which lists considerable amounts of omega 3’s in the farmed varieties (not quite as much as wild, but plentiful nevertheless). Just wondering if you have access to newer or more accurate information than what I’ve been using?

Johnka, most of us (me included) are inclined to accept the numbers in the USDA Nutrient Database, but I’m kinda with NeilG on this one. Farm rasied salmon are fed fish meal and corn meal. If those farm raised salmon aren’t raised in COLD water and if they aren’t eating plankton (the source of Omega 3s), I don’t see how they could be high in Omega 3 fatty acids. Heck, canned Bumblebee Sockeye (from Alaska) has got to be higher in Omega 3s than the farm-raised stuff.

I just managed to get some wild Alaska salmon (Sockeye) recently. The flesh is the most beautiful rich red color. Sitting next to the orange-colored farm raised salmon, there was NO comparison. They feed the farm-raised fish a type of supplement (canthaxanthin, which is a type of carotenoid) that gives their skin that orange color. Without it, the flesh would be QUITE pale.

It’s all smoke and mirrors, artificial stuff, unfortunately.

neil can explain any of your sugestions, PLEASE.
I have no problems if you have different recommendations to others, but back them up.
Not a big fan of liver and other assorted guts… but hey thats just me

soaking/sprouting grains is certainly recommended to make the nutrients more available to the body and decrease the phytate content at the same time…

BUT…
Flax doesn’t need to be sprouted to be eaten. it’s the one grain that is the exception. unless you were trying to sprout it for the sprouts themselves… i think other seeds/grains would be better suited to making edible sprouts.

This is because neilg reads a few fringe websites therefore “knows everything”

in fact from the available research, farmed salmon has similar n-3 fats to wild salmon, the main diffeerence is that the farmed has more n-6 fats (and therefore a higher fat g/100g than wild)
This means that you dont get as good a ratio of n3:n6 from farmed as you do wild.

I think it is highly individual. Some people perform well even on low carbs.

If bodyfat is a problem, i think it is best to keep 2,3 P+C meals around your workouts and stick to P+F for the remainder of the day.

Hey Guys,
No I have not gone back to double check the article but I think in the fat roundtable (or one of John B’s articles) it is mentioned that one should avoid “farmed” salmon. as for organ meats they tend to have a mix of other nutrients (best from organic range fed animals) e.g. heart higher in CoQ10, adrenals vitamin C.
Don’t knock someone about “fringe sites” as the acid/base idea’s John Berardi mention have been mentioned for years as has meal combinations.
I agree with Ko and others that say these changes are just to drastic and radical for the average T-Magger. That doesn’t make them wrong though. Sometimes even slight changes can have an effect in the positive.
Sometimes you just need to absorb what is useful from alternative ideas, rather than discount everything.
Peace,
T-Ren

Just a thought, when you cook the salmon or eat canned salmon(which has been cooked as well) doesn’t that destroy most of the beneficial oils? They tell us not to heat our essential oils, then wouldn’t cooking these foods bring upon the same issues?

Ev,

There are some good posts and information being spread here. Excellent question, by the way.

As far as eating for athletic performance goes, there is only one thing that needs to be taken into consideration here: Performance. How do you know if a certain nutritional plan is optimal for performance? Well, measure the performance!

I think it was White Flash that recommended a higher carbohydrate approach for sports that involve a lot of sprinting and practicing on a daily basis. I couldn’t agree more.

What sport do you play, Ev? At what level? These just help in formulating the appropriate diet.

It’s been mentioned several times that body fat percentage is directly related to athletic performance. That’s why, in many cases, athletes do implement a low-carb diet, even for a short period of time. If an athlete can improve his performance simply by dropping some body fat, then this is a viable option. This would likely not be undertaken during the peak of the competitive season, however.

loopfitt, canned salmon and canned sardines are cooked (lightly cooked depending on the brand) after canning, so there is negligble oxygen for oxidation of o3s

Tampa-Terry, Thanks for the info. I know what you mean about the sockeye; our local Central Market occasionally gives me some of the sockeye for the price of the regular. Good stuff. My favorite as far as taste goes is the King Salmon, by far.

It makes a lot of sense that farmed samlon would have less omega 3’s, although I’m still hoping that the USDA information is accurate. I wonder where the studies were performed?

Until recently the feed for farmed salmon was mostly fish meal and fish oil based. Lately there have been additions of canola oil and grains which serves two purposes, neither is human nutrition based. One reason is that in order to increase the numbers of farmed salmon without depleting feed fish stocks an alternate feed source was needed. The other one is that the other ingredients do save costs.

King salmon is the best flavor wise and the best of those are the spring run fish like Copper River Kings. Springers carry far more fat than fall run fish because they have to live in fresh water for up to 6 months without eating.

I have to wonder if a guy (or girl) was going to eat a bunch of salmon if the extra cost of wild fish would be worth it or could you just eat the farmed stuff and a couple of fish oil caps?

“NeilG-
Fats that heal, fats that kill, the author does not say avoid them, they have purpose and benefits for the body”

“The Author”…lol, hmmmm

Tampa Terry-
Good point on farmed Salmon. I am not sure if it has been talked about enough here but your point is valid.

Another idea worth trying would be to up your fat intake.

How much and what type of fat are you eating at this time?

Mi Mi Frase, if your question was for me, “How much and what type of fat are you eating at this time?” the answer is 64g per day; roughly .5g per pound of LBM.

I get my fat from the meat I eat, flaxseed oil, fish oil and sometimes a tablespoon of mayo made from grapeseed oil. In general, I’m stingy with the saturated and miscellaneous types of fat in my diet. Being stingy in that way allows me to use a higher percentage of Omega 3s.

Tampa terry,

you get .5 fats, may i ask how much protein and carbs u get per lean body weight too?

thanks :slight_smile:

Hey Guys,
No I have not gone back to double check the article but I think in the fat roundtable (or one of John B’s articles) it is mentioned that one should avoid “farmed” salmon. as for organ meats they tend to have a mix of other nutrients (best from organic range fed animals) e.g. heart higher in CoQ10, adrenals vitamin C.
Don’t knock someone about “fringe sites” as the acid/base idea’s John Berardi mention have been mentioned for years as has meal combinations.
I agree with Ko and others that say these changes are just to drastic and radical for the average T-Magger. That doesn’t make them wrong though. Sometimes even slight changes can have an effect in the positive.
Sometimes you just need to absorb what is useful from alternative ideas, rather than discount everything.
Peace,
T-Ren


No, you haven’t, and maybe you should have. Instead of being an arm-chair expert, why not bring the articles up, hit ctrl+f, and type in “farmed salmon” so as not to put words in the great JMB’s mouth! If you read carefully, you will find that the great John and Steve Berardi live on canned salmon, which according to the great one himself contains 2.0 grams of EPA/DHA per 8 oz. serving. Now, I’m no fish expert, however, canned sea-food generally tends to be of an inferior quality than the fresh fish variety (this is not true of the Dave’s Albacore that TC Luoma mentioned). As for the acid/base article, Berardi backs things up with research and science, something most bullshit, wacko fringe sites forget to do.

I wish TC were here to bitch slap some of you, there is so much minutia being worried about that I’m curious as to how some of you people could feed yourself 5500 clean calories a day without worrying about chemicals, mercury, your mood ring, or the barometric pressure. I’ve seen plenty of athletes at the high-school who have never HEARD of an EFA, yet were large, muscular, ripped, and in excellent shape. Were they genetically figted? Not particularly. Did they work their ass off? You bet! It might not have been healthy, but they sure looked fine to me.

By the way, maybe this will settle something…


Farmed Salmon Nutrition Facts

On average, farm salmon contain about 11 grams of fat per three-ounce serving, or about 13% by weight. This compares to approximately seven grams of fat for a three-ounce serving of wild salmon (8%), although fat levels in wild salmon vary widely based on fish species, stock, water temperature, diet, size and age.
Although farm salmon contain more fat than their wild counterparts, they also contain higher levels of polyunsaturated fats known as omega 3 fatty acids. On average, a three-ounce serving of farm salmon has 1.8 grams of omega 3 fatty acids; a three-ounce serving of wild salmon has 1.5 grams.
Omega 3 fatty acids have a number of positive health benefits, including reducing the risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, stroke, depression, Alzheimer?s disease, childhood asthma, cancer, diabetes and kidney disease.
Health Canada counsels people to eat 2 ?3 servings of fish every week, with at least one portion to be an ?oily fish? like salmon, which contains higher concentrations of omega 3 fatty acids.
Farm salmon also have high levels of HDL (or good) cholesterol, which serves to lower the level of LDL (or bad) cholesterol, triglycerides and overall cholesterol in the body.
PCBs, dioxins and other persistent organic pollutants (POPs) exist in trace amounts in virtually all foods. Although fish may contain slightly higher levels of POPs than dairy or meat products, nutritionists still counsel consumers to eat fish regularly. This is because the health benefits of eating fish ? particularly oily fish like salmon ? far outweigh any potential health risks.
Despite extensive scientific testing in North America and Europe, there is not one published study that indicates that farm salmon have higher levels of POPs than wild salmon.
The EU Scientific Committee on Food recently undertook the most intensive sampling program in the world to measure POP levels in a range of food products. They found that, although fish and fish products have higher levels of POPs than dairy and meat products, wild and farm salmon were virtually ?indistinguishable? ? in fact, wild salmon actually had slightly higher levels than farmed.
There is one study, commissioned by the David Suzuki Foundation in B.C., which reportedly found higher levels of POPs in farm salmon than in wild. This limited study of just four farm and four wild salmon has not been corroborated by any other scientific evidence, nor has it been independently reviewed, published or released for public scrutiny.
Health Canada tells Canadian consumers they can safely eat as many servings of farm salmon as they wish, noting that the Canada Health Guide recommends 2 ? 3 servings of meat or meat alternatives (fish or legumes) per day and that people should seek a well-balanced diet.
The Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Canadian aquaculture industry have undertaken more than 1,000 tests on wild and farm salmon over the past nine years. POP levels in all samples were well below government prescribed safety levels.


from http://www.ewos.ca/ewos/ewebca2.nsf/ewos\ewebca2.nsf/0/53EA8BA01E2BF04B88256ACA006EE2EA?OpenDocument

Dark Assassin, there are some nuances and subtleties involved in what I do that involve whether I’m lifting weights that day or not. However, generally speaking, I’ve been able to put on some muscle and drop some body fat (at the same time!) while eating about 1.23g per pound of LBM.

Carbs WERE low (~35g) on days I didn’t lift weights and higher on days I did until I threw in a second cardio session on days I didn’t lift weights. At that point my energy levels became a problem; I barely had enough energy to get up off the couch. Solution? Increase carbs slightly on days I do double cardio sessions.

When it comes to calculating the numbers, it’s a dance, DA. Everyone’s carb requirements/needs are different. Protein and fat intake are pretty easy to calculate, but carbs have to be played with. Carb requirements are based on your level of activity and the degree to which you’re insulin sensitive (or not).

Have I muddied up the waters enough for you? (grin)