[quote]forlife wrote:
I don’t claim he was right about everything, I just agree with his understanding of what the bible actually says about the enlightened falling away. It’s crystal clear, at least to me.
Not that any of it matters from my persecutive…I think the bible is just another in a long series of holy books written by men in their search for meaning (and unfortunately in some cases, in the search for power and dominion over others).[/quote]
I didn’t say you thought he was right about everything. If you did then you would be a Christian. I just disagree with your comment about him knowing alot about the Bible.
at one point in time I started putting together some material on eternal security, I never finished it. I give the verses for eternal security as well as the counter verses and an argument small rebuttal to each verse that is against it.
Here it is.
Verses used as an argument against eternal security, with a rebuttal
Hebrews 6:4-6 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
The clue to this one is actually in verse 7-8. which should be linked to Jesus description in Matthew
Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Shared actually means partakers, and translated notes from one of the translators of the NASB has pointed out that partakers should not be confused with possessors
Hebrews 10:26-27 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
Knowledge in this sense uses the greek word epignosis which means
epignoÌ?sis
Thayer Definition:
- precise and correct knowledge
1a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine
Unlike gnosis which means
gnoÌ?sis
Thayer Definition:
- knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding
1a) the general knowledge of Christian religion
1b) the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced
1c) especially of things lawful and unlawful for Christians
1d) moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living
On top of that there strong implication that this would be us going out of our way to Sin after we have been saved. The typical Christian in the Biblical sense is described as being conflicted between the old nature and the new nature of Christ
Hebrews 10:38-39 “‘But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.’ But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.”
Those who shrink back are referred to in Heb 10:26-27
Also there seems to be a definitive affirmation that we are not of the shrinking back kind.
Definistion of the word faith
pistis
Thayer Definition:
- conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting manâ??s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
- fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
1 Timothy 1:18-21 “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.”
They rejected the faith what more needs to be said. It also never says they have lost their salvation.
2 Timothy 2:16-18 “Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.”
This is kind of a no duh thing. If you no longer believe God is going to save you what faith do you have? Same goes for if you became a muslim you are rejecting Christ. In that case though I would cite John 10:27-30 or I john 2:19
2 Peter 3:17 “Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.”
Interesting why the preceding verses are not included
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
Which what he is saying has nothing to do with Eternal security instead it is referring to orthodox teachings vs. hearsay.
2 Peter 2:20-22 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.””
I could use the word for knowledge argument again, but I think it is not needed.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
I think the exegesis is that most people take is totally wrong on this chapter. For instance he is talking about false teachers that are leading people astray. In these particular verses he refers to those who are barely escaping from those sins. This indicates that they are still new to the Christian faith, and would possible be comparable to the parable of the seeds that fell on different ground. I think it is also important to note that Peter never says that they are not saved, nor does he say they are saved. Just that the condition is worse for them. I wonder if peter thought of himself when he denied Christ in these verses.
James 5:19-20 “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”
This one is a little harder, there just is not enough text to really get what he is getting out. This could just as easily be a fringe Christian, or just a warning against hearsay that has nothing to do with the loss of salvation but instead referring to a deadening of the Spirit of God with in an individual
Verses used for an argument of eternal security.
John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.” (Combine this with Jeremiah 32:40 above)
.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Romans 6:8 “Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.”
Romans 8:9-10 “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.”
Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
1Cor 1:8,9 “He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.”
1Cor 3:15 “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
2Cor 1:21,22 “Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”
Ephesians 1:5 “he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will–”
Ephesians 1:11 “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,”
Eph 1:13,14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession-- to the praise of his glory.”
Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.”
1Pet 1:3-5 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.” (xref Eph 1:14)
1John 5:4 “for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.”
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come
