that one was actually pretty good. I think that was one of the first 5 books I read. The first one was Arnold’s Bodybuilding Encyclopedia.
so i haven’t read an actual book on training in the last few years outside of a few pdfs here and there, but I used to read soooooo much. TNation was the very first resource I came upon online, back in 2003, when I first started really lifting weights regularly. But I’ve read dozens of books. I also read every single article on this site for years, back when they published 1 per week. And I read every article in the archives. That was back when guys like Ian King and Shelby Starnes, and several other really really great writers were writing for the site. Trust me dude, it would be really hard for you to have accumulated the training knowledge I have, just based on your age. You have NO CLUE how much time I spent reading, to go along with hundreds more hours of gym experience. I actually read on this site for a full 10 years before I made my first post. I didn’t think I was the sort of person who should give advice on forums in my teens and 20’s so I just read all the time. Mostly the articles, every now and then I’d read some stuff on the forums. But the articles were just so high quality back then, as they really limited what authors they would publish.
But to chime in to the discussion, I use to think there was some “optimal” way to train and it got me nowhere for 4 years. I thought since I’m an intelligent dude that somehow someway I can come up with the “perfect” workout program. I finally decided to listen to guys like @T3hPwnisher, @Yogi1, @MarkKO, @flipcollar, @Evolv, @BOTSLAYER, @dt79, @JFG. And you know what, I’ve made more progress in the past 3-4 months than I have in the past 4 years.
I simply followed basic principles (squat, press, pull, do some assistance and conditioning and stay mobile) and tried to get better each workout. No mad scientist looking for a perfect mix of everything. And you know what, I’m stronger and in better shape than I’ve ever been. I wish I would have listened to all these guys 4 years ago.
Now I don’t believe in programs. I just believe in following certain principles and staying consistent.
I think your understanding of training and, to be honest, your life view in general, is vastly over-simplified; there are so many ways to make progress compared with the number any one person is likely to have encountered that it is naive to consider a method wrong without very solid reasoning and experience. Even then, inter-personal variation is going to have such an effect that it is basically impossible to ever say for sure that a method will not work for an individual without having a close coaching relationship with that person and knowing their training history.
I also believe that results are way more important than most people think (yeah, really). I know it seems obvious in a way, but so many people put other things before results and then claim that the results are easily graspable (and they simply “chose to focus on something else”… haha!). It’s not just the fact that results speak for themselves, but the general rule that success breeds success - sure, a steroid user (for example) may have used the fact that they have the support of PEDs in order to achieve a higher level, but their mere being at that higher level can often bring about a greater knowledge and a greater ability to succeed in the future, simply because of the fact that they have been successful.
This is basically a slant on the “fake it till you make it” theory, but I think it has a solid foundation in real-life results. Sometimes, being at a higher level at all costs is actually the most important thing, as without being on this higher level it is impossible to even begin to conceive of a further rung of the ladder… Think of how many celebrities have achievements and income in multiple fields; would Arnold Schwarzenegger really have succeeded in any area of his career had he not excelled in bodybuilding? How about Zydrunas Savickas when he tore both patellar tendons and was out of training for almost a year, do you think he would ever have come back to win so many accolades had he been injured before ever lifting more than 200lbs? Sure it’s “muscle memory” or whatever, but so many high school athletes retire with injuries that a top professional would be back from within a year… REGARDLESS of the supposed prognosis.
And it’s not simply “a winner’s mindset”: it’s a very real and multi-faceted gain that comes only with success. If I could advise you to do one thing, it would be to do one thing very well. It’s not at the expense of other results; it’s a step towards achieving them.
it all just reeks of bitterness, frankly. Oh these guys are so jacked but they do everything wrong, while I sit here knowing the optimal way to train and my squat depth is ass to grass yet I weigh a buck 60. Life is soooo unfair
I don’t think I suggested we do. I said solely based on age. Knowing how much time I spent on this stuff, It’s just not particularly plausible, given your training age and actual age, for you to have accumulated more knowledge than me. I don’t know why you’re even interested in arguing this point. The basic facts that I do know about each of us are sufficient for me to be persuaded this is the case.
And no. I was not a jacked adolescent… I’m guessing that because I didn’t specify first books ‘about training’, you decided to take a shot at my phrasing? As if that wasn’t clearly implied? cool.
you’re boring me now man. Your responses are just annoying. you’re still a jackass.
You don’t know my training age just like I don’t know yours. I’m not making claims to know more than anyone else or that I have the optimal way to train. That would be pretty arrogant, petty, and insecure. If you need to feel superior to me that’s a you thing. It’s the internet, you’re arguing with Zack Morris… for all you know this is an elaborate catfish scenario and I’m a scorned lover or child.
Everyone deserves to enjoy their preferred activities and pursue happiness. I am bitter, but not about the intelligent use of gear. Its a bigger issue that nobody is truly responsible for. Maybe Wieder…
My apologies to anyone I may have made to feel inferior for the choices they make. In my haste to make a point I may have neglected that people can do whatever they want and should do it without being judged.
Is there really a universal optimal way to train? There are so many differences in physiology, psychology, and environments that narrowing down any one comprehensive plan strikes me as practically impossible.
See someone doing weird shit that will hurt them? Just mind your business.
They keep doing weird shit in every movement? Talk to an instructor of the gym to him(her) go there help the person.
They keep doing weird shit after the instructor went to help? Give them the card of an good doctor and physiotherapist after they get injured
Most of the time, the weird shit that you’re seeing is just an weird shit that will hurt the person, but the person will feel uncomfortable if you go to him(her) and say what they should be doing.
(There was a ego lifter in my gym today, he came to the same equipment than me and asked for sharing, when it was his turn, he just put the double of the weight and did it very poorly for a few half reps, I went back, put my weight and did the way is good for me. He started to say that the weight was to low for me, that I should put more and do like him. I just did the exercise with the same weight that him was doing for a set, with better form and said that I was using low weight because it was part of my workout, it have a meaning, is not that I can’t is more about focusing in other things. He tried to put more weight after that, I don’t know why, but I was done and went do other things)
Fortunately, when you log things on the Interwebz, we are left some clues, so we do know at least a little something of your training history. Shall we take a look and see what turns up?
In January 2012, you started a training log here:
“I’m new to T-Nation, not new to weightlifting. After receiving my Undergrad in Kinesiology, I’ve been very excited for training.”
Great! A recent college grad with a degree in Kinesiology, no less, and raring to go on the big lifts. Surely some solid progress will follow. Most trainees can make some real solid gains in the early going, and then once you learn to train…
A few months ago. you popped back in and gave us a thread where you detailed some of your journey:
So you’re a “33 year old former powerlifter” who went from a paunchy 5’11" and 195 to a sorta-maybe-leanish 165 pounds. Cool. I can dig it. You weren’t thrilled with the body you got from all that heavy lifting, so time to lean out. Alrighty then.
Then you threw a little temper tantrum in the “Should I Start Cutting?” thread when flipcollar suggested that maybe the other people in the thread were giving better advice. Although it’s apparently hit you HARD in the feels, to a neutral observer it makes sense that perhaps a big, lean, strong dude (or even someone meeting two of those three descriptors) might know more about the subject than “beginners like you who think they know everything because they had a minor success in the gym” (an apt description of your current level, although this gets funnier because…well, let’s just keep going).
This is even funnier in retrospect, because flipcollar was giving you some leeway for being a naive beginner, probably because he didn’t recall that you described yourself as a “33 year old former powerlifter” or that you started a training log here five years ago (and even in that, said you weren’t new to lifting weights!)
Your current training log indicates that you front-squatted 215 for a “heavy single” six days ago, which makes you marginally stronger than my wife, who started barbell training two months ago after a lifetime of yoga and running. You would barely be the strongest female at the CrossFit gym where I train (six girls front-squatting between 185 and 210 pounds) and most of them have probably been lifting for a lot less than five years.
So just to recap: you started a training log on here five years ago to discuss how excited you were to start putting your knowledge to work, and right now you weigh 165 pounds, front squat 215, and might be able to dunk a basketball sometime in the next year. In the last five years, as far as I can tell, your biggest achievement is that you got sorta fat, then managed to get a little less fat, returning to a level of strength that a typical novice trainee can achieve within a few solid months of training. For some reason, you are still piddling around the forums offering advice to people, despite the fact that you’ve never really advanced beyond “beginner-to-very-low-level-intermediate” stage yourself. And, when more advanced trainees suggest that it may behoove beginners to listen to people who have actually achieved something in their desired pursuit - like, maybe listening strong guys explain what they did to get strong instead of listening to the guy with a 215 pound front squat after 5 years of training whose current goal is to dunk a basketball, or maybe just philosophize about life and not using steroids:
“The lifting has been great this year. But we’re like 10 weeks into the year and when you work out 5-6 days a week like I do I’m at the 50 work out mark this year if not more. Not boasting but it’s a huge concern to prolong my lifting career. I want to be lifting and dunking long term, into my 40s and 50s. Taking care of my body is a priority. I’m not some steroid or hormone user who just used drugs to reach all my goals. Fuck that. As a natural person my entire life I’ve learned to listen to what my body is telling me. Right now I feel I need to change or I’ll revert to a powerlifter or Oly lifter, and move further away from dunking. I’ll just put on more mass if I’m not careful.”
Look, you can have whatever goals you want. That’s terrific. Just don’t get all pissy when the good people of T-Nation aren’t willing to give much credence to unimpressive advice delivered by someone with an unimpressive physique and unimpressive strength. Most people who want to get some combination of big, strong, and lean should listen to someone that has achieved the right combination of those three things that they are seeking. If someone looks at your body of work and decides you are the person they want to emulate, they will heed your advice.
You know, I almost threw a line in about this, but the post was already long. My intent is not to look down my nose at anyone because I’m well aware that others on this forum squatting 500+ pounds could easily do the same to me. But those of us who have been around this forum for awhile have seen this movie before: person of low-to-moderate achievement gets snippy with person of higher achievement when person of higher achievement says that person of low-to-moderate achievement may not be offering the best advice to beginners forum. For whatever silly reason, person of low-to-moderate achievement wants to press the issue. Person of high achievement cites “Well, you can believe what you want, but I got a lot bigger / stronger / leaner doing Y instead of X.” Person of low-to-moderate achievement considers whether they should accept said advice, but decides it is more important to be RIGHT than it is to learn something, and prods person of high achievement about why they are wrong, despite empirical evidence (i.e. a mere photo of flipcollar).
The difference is, you (and I) don’t strut around needling bigger, stronger, and leaner guys about why they are doing it wrong or get argumentative when one of our statements is disputed by a bigger, stronger, leaner guy. We might take the opportunity to say “Really? That’s interesting, I always believed X, why are you telling me Y?”
What’s funny about Bayside High School’s finest, in this particular case, is that flipcollar was really nice when he showed up with a Rate My Physique thread. He basically said “So you weren’t into powerlifting? Cool. Glad you’re happy to be leaning out.” It’s only after a few disagreements (like Zack telling some kid that he had to work out every day to get lean, despite empirical evidence like flipcollar being lean while training 3-4 days per week that this was/is not the case) that things have spun out into this weird direction. When things go south, Zack always retreats into this weird “See, I don’t care” persona of “Everyone deserves to enjoy their preferred activities and pursue happiness” as though that makes him sound suuuper woke, then throws in the needle “My apologies to anyone I may have made to feel inferior” (there’s only one person feeling inferior in this exchange).
Zack, let me throw in one final point. You have a strange obsession with pointing out that you are 100% hormone and drug free. That’s great. So am I, and I have zero intention of getting anywhere near exogenous hormones. as is the case for about 90 percent of the people posting in this thread. They’re just about all stronger than you anyway, except poor magick (sorry brah). It might be worth considering that the reason for your lack of progress over the five years since you started your first training log isn’t the absence of steroids, and to stop beating your chest in that particular regard. This defense mechanism where you pretend that all the guys putting you to shame must be on 'roids has gotten stale.
What makes me extremely immature? So your saying that just because im immature i’m stupid and should never give advice even if someone is at risk of elbow tendonitis from crappy tricep extension form or a knee injury from locked legs on leg presses. Yes i should definitely never give them advice
