At What Point Do You Think You Are "Qualified" to Give Out Advice?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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Nothing weird about this. People at that age with good genetics can put on up to 30lbs of lbm naturally in 3 years. More if they started underweight. Even the online recognized “experts” who keep writing about natural limits acknowledge this.

Lots of natural competitors will say the same thing. I would say that unless you have a ridiculous metabolism and a natural propensity towards leanness, you should be eating at least 70%-80% clean. That’s not too far off.

This is true. The weight used is irrelevant. Gradually increasing the weight used is what’s important. This is something you normally assume people will do because common sense, so you might neglect to mention it. It’s still all about feeling the muscle.

This is true if you are a bodybuilder concerned with symmetry. 4 days would be the absolute minimum. There will be exceptions, of course, but they do not represent the norm.

Let’s get real here. The only people obsessed with squat technique are mostly 1)those who learned about lifting on the internet so they can compare numbers and take offence at anyone not going below parallel, 2)those involved in relevant strength competitions and 3)those who simply like squatting big weights. There is no requirement for anyone else training for the purpose of maximum size to have an indepth knowledge on the biomechanics of squatting since there are perfectly viable, and arguably more effective alternatives.

With that said, a lot of bodybuilders use the squat for the quads while limiting glute involvement. Hence, the emphasis is on knee extension with an upright torso. If one does not have favourable leverages for the squat, the knees will travel too far forward at the bottom which can result in knee pain and gradual damage, or his ass will rise leading to needless strain on the lower back.

Given your misinterpretation of what qualifies as bro-science, I’m not sure this is entirely true.

Is eating clean subpar or are you talking about different guys. Cos I would define subpar as eating complete crap all day.

Anything else? Cos the rest do not make a very strong case.

Yeah I agree that sucks but it doesn’t make their advice bad. Just different from what you’ve been taught. You gotta understand that T-nation and popular(and accomplished) powerlifters on youtube aren’t the be all end all of training methods.

As long as they are qualified, there is nothing wrong in charging for their services.

Some obvious exceptions would be:

  1. Purposefully overcomplicating training and overstating the diminishing returns from adaption to a training program to create the need for their services and programs.
  2. Delegating the writing of programs and nutrition plans to unqualified people behind the scenes.
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How do you know when the person got on gear? You’ve known him intimately since he was 17? Hearsay?

This retort would imply that you think steroids build ALL the muscle or there is a vastly different training style required for steroid users.

Let’s use common sense.

  1. If steroids build all the muscle, people wouldn’t even bother training while on steroids. I mean, if they’re so lazy that they resort to steroids right at the start, why would they bother showing up at the gym when using them?

  2. If you accept point 1, how can someone on steroids possibly build muscle tissue without knowing how to train?

  3. If you accept point 2, why would there be a vastly different training style not applicable to natural trainees other than, perhaps, differences in total volume and/or intensity, which is subjective even among natural trainees? Steroids simply speed up the process while enabling better recovery. I see natural trainees nowadays doing a shitload more volume than steroids users I trained with in the 90s.

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@dt79 really appreciate the lengthy/detailed reply

Not disagreeing with you but even then, maybe I’ve a skewed perception cause most of the attention goes to the people who most likely have good genetics. Even so, how many people get a build like that by the age of 21-ish.

I meant eating clean in the sense of prepping every single meal, measuring every single calorie etc. It’s easy to do when you’re rich, which also happens to quite a few of them.

Maybe it’s just me but I genuinely can’t comprehend how there are people who can excel(98+ percentile) academically, end up in a law course, spend 2 years in the army(mandatory conscription) and be a fitness model at the same time.

for reference, I know people who literally have their entire life revolve around academia yet they’re barely breaking into the 95th percentile.

Not disagreeing with you but to add some context. I don’t see how in any justifiable way, telling a 150lb kid that doing controlled dummbell lateral raises with 4-6kgs is more important than overhead presses because “that’s what I did and I turned out fine”.

Not disagreeing with you here either but I’m pretty sure telling someone squatting high is the a must is just plain wrong. You can tell someone to squat high, so long as you mention that’s what you do and other people might do it differently.

It’s pretty easy to get a qualification from what I’ve heard, just a couple of courses and that’s about it. I’m just don’t think its ethical to mislead people into thinking you got your results from sheer hard work/knowledge.

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Well yeah, at least one of them. Met him in the gym and he was a year older than me. Maybe I’m just bitter.

I don’t think steroids build ALL the muscle but I there has been studies ( http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101 ) done that shows that you can literally get on gear and increase your muscle mass without doing anything.

As for training styles, I honestly do believe and correct me if I’m wrong, that steroids just makes everything more effective. A different style of training isn’t required but is far more tolerated in the sense that a natural trainee might not be able to cope.

As for knowing how to train… You don’t need to know how to train to get good results, you simply need to train your ass off. For example, I literally know people(whom I’d consider jacked) who do not understand the principle of progressive overload. They don’t understand that in order for muscle to grow, the human body has to adapt to increased amount of tension repeatedly. They just go by what they feel such as “when i do lift more weight, its harder so i lift more weight”. That’s fine and dandy when you’re minding your own business but when you’re charging people for it, that’s just plain wrong. Oh and I do know people who’re “trainers” who aren’t certified spewing out bro advice such as this.

I’m perfectly fine with paying money for a trainer/coach who isn’t certified so long as they know their shit cause end of the day, that’s the only thing that matters. This is just a case of exploitation of ignorant people. Can’t say I feel bad for the exploited but neither can I say I agree with exploiting them.

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@dt79 What do you mean this mindset, I was being sarcastic in my post I don’t really care what others do in my gym. They have the right to train any way they want.

Also this is the most savage thing I’ve read on this site,

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oh my god, I meant trying not to be. Now that’s one fucked up typo. Ought to proof read more often, holy shit.

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I don’t imagine that anyone will have an answer for these very, very good questions…

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I find it interesting that it’s only natural lifters who ever report these sightings of lifters who do literally everything wrong, but still manage to build pro-caliber physiques/strength levels because of drugs. Very interesting indeed.

I have an absolute shitload of steroids in a shoe box in a drawer under my bed right now. I will, in all seriousness, give enough steroids for a cycle to someone so they can train badly and eat “sub-par” to see just how pro-caliber of a physique they are capable of building…

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No problem. Your post looked real unlike the other guy who seemed, like @T3hPwnisher said, to be chasing unicorns and this is the beginner section so I thought I would address the issues indepth.

Not many. But I’ve seen a few of them as I’ve trained around a lot of competitive bodybuilders in Asia before. In their 1st year, they will literally blow up naturally while maintaining leanness. Then they will start doing steroids after their 3rd or 4th year, some earlier.

This is what happens in Asia since the steroid laws are much less strict. For example, in your country, they are not even scheduled drugs. They are regulated under the Poisons Act. The public stigma associated with using them, however, may actually be much worse than abroad.

So, having said that, here’s another exercise in logical thinking:

Since drugs are easily acquired with relatively light punishment, how many people do you think are using them in commercial gyms? I assure you there are a lot of them or selling them would not be a very lucrative venture and, thus, steroids would not easily acquired there. Do the math yourself. Do you see many people walking around near that size or at least bigger than the average population with that level of leanness?

If you get my point above, then either:

  1. Everyone you are talking about has Kevin Levrone’s genetics when it comes to drugs, which would put them in the 1% of the 1%. But even Levrone knows how to train and diet.
  2. They figured shit out before and on steroids or had very good coaching which they are passing on to others.

I would think point 2 would be more probable. Perhaps they just trained with the big guys and didn’t overthink and question things after reading the internet.

Here’s another thing to think about since I’ve brought up the internet and real life. Do you see a larger proportion of NATTIES getting big(ger)? I don’t. I only see more people with bigger numbers in the big 3 mostly due to technique. Don’t you think there would be a lot more big natties around if all this shit about optimal programming was truly much more effective than what an “uneducated” bodybuilder would tell you?

Even a lot of natties on this forum do this. It would certainly be the most optimal thing to do in theory if you take out psychology, lifestyle factors and consideration for individual genetics. I wouldn’t say this is completely right since the difference wouldn’t be great if you are gaining but if you have a business, would you tell a client to do what is optimal or risk him getting mediocre results and blaming it on you?

I can provide a viable, cheaper alternative. Ground beef, cheap sausages and pasta. Adjust portions according to required macros and add things like olive oil if needed. Cut up the sausages into small bits with a pair of scissors. Mix it with the ground beef and cook in a large wok. Boil the pasta. Do this in the morning or evening when you get home and leave it in the fridge. Add pasta sauce of choice and microwave for each serving, Finish it in as many servings as you want.

This can make up around 50-60% of your daily calories. When you are outside, eat cheap food at school or get a gallon of milk and carry it around with you(don’t drink all of it, it’s just cheaper in a gallon) or whatever. You will end up eating 70-80% clean. I did this for 3 years in university. Same shit every day.

First of all, you need to accept that the whole “do fullbody, compounds only, SS then transition to Texas Method yada yada yada” dogma is an internet construct and is not the only, nor necessarily the most effective way of training for a beginner or, as stated above, you would be seeing more big natties in the gym.

Second, you have to understand that MMC, like technique for a powerlifer, is a skill that takes years to develop and without it, even people training the big 3 may lack the body awareness to activate certain muscles when performing them. A lot of people have even ended up dropping the military press as they advance because they can’t feel their delts working and they’re not getting much out of it.

Last, but not least, if the kid is going to train with the trainer in real life for a long time, then there’s no point nitpicking at some parts of his training since they all add up to a whole that has worked, along with the benefit of technical cues, motivation and accountability. This is why I keep telling people to go train with big guys instead of getting all their information on the internet.

People make absolute statements all the time(Go ATG or it doesn’t count! Everyone MUST squat!). I would rather know what his full leg workout would look like for him to make that statement. I know people who squat high and then go really deep during hack squats for the quads.

I was referring to training knowledge actually.

I can agree with you regarding using the end product that cannot be achieved without steroids to get clients from the untrained or beginner population who have minimal knowledge of things like this.

I’ll go through the rest of the points later when I have more time.

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I mean labeling yourself as “training like a powelifter”, You will close yourself off from a lot of things that will be of great benefit to you when getting to the next level and so on.

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I’ll try to respond to your points about Benaything’s post. [quote=“T3hPwnisher, post:119, topic:227379”]
Are we to conclude that EVERYONE at these contests don’t know how to train?
[/quote]

Not that they don’t know how to train, but they are doing so sub-optimally.

You could conclude this, but it doesn’t take into account what everyone is is doing and whether or not they are training “optimally”

Its a possibility. Maybe they have their own website where they insult others for their paradigms.

@Yogi1 Did I answer good?

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Why are all these competitors competing sub-optimally? None of them want to win?

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I don’t close myself off from other ways of training despite what it may have appeared.

I regularly read all the bodybuilding content on this site as I feel expanding all areas of your knowledge on a subject is beneficial.

I read and try to learn everything I can about different aspects of weight training and don’t close myself off.

I only say I train like a powerlifter as that is what I do.

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Perhaps they aren’t aware there is a “better” way of training and therefore are competing sub-optimally. They could have a narrow mindset and not realize they could win with a better training style.

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Are you familar with Occam’s razor?

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Yes I am. Simplest answer is probably the right answer.

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Do you believe some North Koreanesque information deprivation among bodybuilding competitors would fit in with that principle?

That being said; supposing it does, it means the placing of these people in contests is entirely inconsequential, as they are competing against inept people. In such cases, the magical quality of steroids are also false, because they only allow you to surpass people who don’t know how to train.

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No, not particularly (and it’s “did I answer well?”)

this doesn’t answer the question, rather just ignores it. The question was how are these people doing so well when training sub-optimally. Are we to assume that the others are training even worse?[quote=“hugh_gilly, post:131, topic:227379”]
You could conclude this, but it doesn’t take into account what everyone is is doing and whether or not they are training “optimally”
[/quote]

this doesn’t make a lot of sense either. Clarify.

As a slight aside, am I to assume you are in your teens? Just curious…

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Oh goddamnit.

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haha, I could be wrong! Just wait and see…