At What Point Do You Think You Are "Qualified" to Give Out Advice?

Note the age of the athletes.

Yup. No talent pool in the US. Every kid wants to grow up to play football, baseball or basketball. Only the kid playing Magic the Gathering at lunch wants to grow up to be a weightlifter.

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China wins a lot more medals than we do while also busting assisted athletes.

How would people feel if they knew top youth sport athletes were being prescribed drugs and hormones through veterinarians?

Alright so it wasn’t aimed at me. [quote=“Yogi1, post:147, topic:227379”]
threads started by kids who know how to “train optimally” and are ever-so-proud of their squat depth complaining about how the guys on steroids make so much more progress than they do despite not training optimally or squatting to parallel and so on.
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These thread are always entertaining to read however I don’t ever recall me starting one or a time in my life complaining about my natty (or lack of) gains.

I couldn’t care less about whether someone takes stuff or not.

When I was in my teens, I believed so much of what guys like hugh and ben believe. That there is such a thing as optimal training, that I was doing it, and that the jokers who were significantly bigger and stronger than me just used steroids to get there and they didn’t know anything about training, etc

You guys are just so misguided on this stuff. Be more flexible about this. You guys DON’T know what is optimal for everyone. You guys DON’T know other peoples priorities. You DON’T know how much anyone else values gym endeavors versus other recreational activities.

Here’s something to consider. What if the guy who does all the things ‘wrong’ but still makes progress hates doing the things you guys consider to be ‘optimal’? What if he used to do these optimal things but got burnt out, and has transitioned to training that he enjoys so that he can continue to go to the gym and be happy? Is it truly optimal, in the greater scheme of things, to do things that don’t make you happy in the gym, when you know other things may only give you, say, 80% of the results but you’ll enjoy the process?

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Yes, this is true.

This is individual, regardless of whether you are on steroids or not.

The principle of progressive overload is essentially common sense, and it seems like they are using it lol. And I think they are right. The interpretation online is wrong. What causes growth is the effort expended when performing a set, not the increase in weight itself. The ability to increase the weight is a gauge of effort expended since the muscle has grown.

Unfortunately, we usually have geniuses who will lift with the same weight for a year on a bodypart split, which would imply a lack of effort, then start something like Stronglifts where they are forced to train with full intensity or they will get crushed by the weight, then the declare they have finally found the Holy Grail of training and bro splits are for roiders because they made no gains when all they needed was some common sense.

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So we don’t know but you do?

Glute Ham Raises ARE awesome!

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I know a lot more about training than you do, yes. And I know, for a fact, that basic training principles do not change from being natural to going on gear. I know that different training programs work best for different people, and that I can’t look at what someone is doing in the gym on any given day and definitively say if they’re doing what is best for them, outside of a few really ridiculous things you see from time to time.

When you say ‘so we don’t know but you do’, I think you’re probably taking me wrong. What I’m saying is that several younger folks in these forums have essentially said or implied that there is only one way to go about training. That there is an ‘optimal’ training method out there. I contend that there is not, and that more time in the gym opens basically everyone’s eyes to this. I know that when I was new to the gym, I was far more dogmatic than I am now.

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What a good laugh! If that helps you sleep at night sure you know more than the fictional character Zack Morris. AC Slater maybe not… Finish reading SuperTraining and you’ll be me 6 years ago.

Maybe the basics but that’s it.

Very true, there are a hundred ways to skin a cat. [quote=“dt79, post:153, topic:227379”]
What causes growth is the effort expended
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Where is your source? Kind of a blanket statement. [quote=“flipcollar, post:152, topic:227379”]
What if he used to do these optimal things but got burnt out, and has transitioned to training that he enjoys so that he can continue to go to the gym and be happy? Is it truly optimal, in the greater scheme of things, to do things that don’t make you happy in the gym, when you know other things may only give you, say, 80% of the results but you’ll enjoy the process?
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Then they should be up front and say they really weren’t about that life and use gear when people ask advice. That’s what this is all about right, who should give advice? Not everybody takes the easy way out.

Also I am only devils advocate here not looking to flame. Thank you @flipcollar for your honesty, sorry if I come across as a jerk troll.

@flipcollar I agree with you on this. [quote=“flipcollar, post:157, topic:227379”]
several younger folks in these forums have essentially said or implied that there is only one way to go about training.
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People view what they have done and worked as the only or optimal way of doing things when in actuality it’s not. [quote=“flipcollar, post:157, topic:227379”]
more time in the gym opens basically everyone’s eyes to this.
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Second to this. I spend around 30 hours a week in the gym basically watching what everyone is doing and it has made me far less dogmatic.

Common sense.

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that one was actually pretty good. I think that was one of the first 5 books I read. The first one was Arnold’s Bodybuilding Encyclopedia.

so i haven’t read an actual book on training in the last few years outside of a few pdfs here and there, but I used to read soooooo much. TNation was the very first resource I came upon online, back in 2003, when I first started really lifting weights regularly. But I’ve read dozens of books. I also read every single article on this site for years, back when they published 1 per week. And I read every article in the archives. That was back when guys like Ian King and Shelby Starnes, and several other really really great writers were writing for the site. Trust me dude, it would be really hard for you to have accumulated the training knowledge I have, just based on your age. You have NO CLUE how much time I spent reading, to go along with hundreds more hours of gym experience. I actually read on this site for a full 10 years before I made my first post. I didn’t think I was the sort of person who should give advice on forums in my teens and 20’s so I just read all the time. Mostly the articles, every now and then I’d read some stuff on the forums. But the articles were just so high quality back then, as they really limited what authors they would publish.

Anyway. yes, i’ve read supertraining.

Best thing I’ve read all day!

But to chime in to the discussion, I use to think there was some “optimal” way to train and it got me nowhere for 4 years. I thought since I’m an intelligent dude that somehow someway I can come up with the “perfect” workout program. I finally decided to listen to guys like @T3hPwnisher, @Yogi1, @MarkKO, @flipcollar, @Evolv, @BOTSLAYER, @dt79, @JFG. And you know what, I’ve made more progress in the past 3-4 months than I have in the past 4 years.

I simply followed basic principles (squat, press, pull, do some assistance and conditioning and stay mobile) and tried to get better each workout. No mad scientist looking for a perfect mix of everything. And you know what, I’m stronger and in better shape than I’ve ever been. I wish I would have listened to all these guys 4 years ago.

Now I don’t believe in programs. I just believe in following certain principles and staying consistent.

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I think your understanding of training and, to be honest, your life view in general, is vastly over-simplified; there are so many ways to make progress compared with the number any one person is likely to have encountered that it is naive to consider a method wrong without very solid reasoning and experience. Even then, inter-personal variation is going to have such an effect that it is basically impossible to ever say for sure that a method will not work for an individual without having a close coaching relationship with that person and knowing their training history.
I also believe that results are way more important than most people think (yeah, really). I know it seems obvious in a way, but so many people put other things before results and then claim that the results are easily graspable (and they simply “chose to focus on something else”… haha!). It’s not just the fact that results speak for themselves, but the general rule that success breeds success - sure, a steroid user (for example) may have used the fact that they have the support of PEDs in order to achieve a higher level, but their mere being at that higher level can often bring about a greater knowledge and a greater ability to succeed in the future, simply because of the fact that they have been successful.
This is basically a slant on the “fake it till you make it” theory, but I think it has a solid foundation in real-life results. Sometimes, being at a higher level at all costs is actually the most important thing, as without being on this higher level it is impossible to even begin to conceive of a further rung of the ladder… Think of how many celebrities have achievements and income in multiple fields; would Arnold Schwarzenegger really have succeeded in any area of his career had he not excelled in bodybuilding? How about Zydrunas Savickas when he tore both patellar tendons and was out of training for almost a year, do you think he would ever have come back to win so many accolades had he been injured before ever lifting more than 200lbs? Sure it’s “muscle memory” or whatever, but so many high school athletes retire with injuries that a top professional would be back from within a year… REGARDLESS of the supposed prognosis.
And it’s not simply “a winner’s mindset”: it’s a very real and multi-faceted gain that comes only with success. If I could advise you to do one thing, it would be to do one thing very well. It’s not at the expense of other results; it’s a step towards achieving them.

Ok, philosophical rant over! :+1::laughing:

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Damn dude! Reading those books as some of your first books is bad ass! Must have been a pretty jacked adolescent.

Yeah because we know so many intimate details about each other.

it all just reeks of bitterness, frankly. Oh these guys are so jacked but they do everything wrong, while I sit here knowing the optimal way to train and my squat depth is ass to grass yet I weigh a buck 60. Life is soooo unfair

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I don’t think I suggested we do. I said solely based on age. Knowing how much time I spent on this stuff, It’s just not particularly plausible, given your training age and actual age, for you to have accumulated more knowledge than me. I don’t know why you’re even interested in arguing this point. The basic facts that I do know about each of us are sufficient for me to be persuaded this is the case.

And no. I was not a jacked adolescent… I’m guessing that because I didn’t specify first books ‘about training’, you decided to take a shot at my phrasing? As if that wasn’t clearly implied? cool.

you’re boring me now man. Your responses are just annoying. you’re still a jackass.

You don’t know my training age just like I don’t know yours. I’m not making claims to know more than anyone else or that I have the optimal way to train. That would be pretty arrogant, petty, and insecure. If you need to feel superior to me that’s a you thing. It’s the internet, you’re arguing with Zack Morris… for all you know this is an elaborate catfish scenario and I’m a scorned lover or child.

Everyone deserves to enjoy their preferred activities and pursue happiness. I am bitter, but not about the intelligent use of gear. Its a bigger issue that nobody is truly responsible for. Maybe Wieder…

My apologies to anyone I may have made to feel inferior for the choices they make. In my haste to make a point I may have neglected that people can do whatever they want and should do it without being judged.