OP, what are you daily macros? What exactly is “low carb” to you?
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Obviously dieting for a long stretch can wear people down mentally as well as physically if they’re not used to it. CT was smart with his general suggestion that after a certain amount of time you should take a break, BUT on the other hand you can see a good number of top natural pros who will diet for 4 to 6 months for a contest, and continually come in top shape, even making improvements year after year.
What I take from this: If I were to make a general statement that other people would read, especially if they had never experienced a drastic cut, or gotten down to seriously lean levels before, I would tell them not to diet for such long periods either. BUT if I were chatting with another very experienced individual who understood various approaches to maximizing muscle retention, preventing drops in hormone levels, and mentally understood what such an experience entailed, then I would have no problem planning a very lengthy cut.
S[/quote]
I find it interesting how most natural guys cutting (team 3DMJ especially) are generally using 16-20 week preps, or even longer sometimes. Seems different than what was recommended just a few years ago
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Just a note to the op, as you can see, that advice given is meant to help avoid lengthy periods of dieting.
Your body adapts over time to drastic caloric restriction. Your mental state and feelings of well being are more important to long term success in what you are trying to do than trying to hold out the longest on a restricted caloric diet.[/quote]
You are missing the point – this is NOT drastic caloric restriction. You are bringing in terms irrelevant to the conversation.
OP has lost LESS than a pound per week. So he is eating within 500 calories of maintenance and/or engaging in effective fat loss program to help preserve lean mass.
The advice to OP in this thread that makes sense is – continue with the “slow” cut and adjust macros on a daily/weekly basis according to how your body feels.
I think one of the biggest factors in how long someone should diet down for has to do with with their mental state…unless dieting for a contest, I don’t think it’s smart to diet to the point of being extremely hungry/energy levels dropping (even in a contest prep this would be nice to avoid, but it’s part of the game for most.)
Dieting for a reasonably lean non-competitor should be about getting to a maintainable level of leanness that he or she can be proud of, but dieting to the point of really straining mentally or emotionally only sets the person up for binging episodes and rapid fat gain at the conclusion of the diet. It’s all about finding the right balance of what is realistically maintainable for a given individual’s lifestyle, in my opinion
[quote]Dave Rogerson wrote:
The strategic use of diet breaks, especially with extended periods of Calorie restriction, are probably a good idea in the long run. Physiologically it will help some of the hormones affected by aggressive weight loss to recover somewhat, such as thyroid hormones and leptin, but taking a little time off from dieting helps some people with the mental aspects of long-term weight control. Having a couple of weeks where you do not obsess about scale weight or feel too run down helps some people maintain greater compliance over the long term. In addition, this may also help to break up the diet into more manageable pieces. Guys like Lyle McDonald have written about this.
The problem some people will have though, is that “maintenance” is actually hard. Adding in Kcals , food volume and carbohydrates will immediately increase scale weight, which will freak some people out and they will think that they are getting fatter and adjusting from a mind-set of where you are working towards a goal to just maintaining yourself is hard for some.
With the mindset of long-term success is it often beneficial to use a model of two steps forward and one step back from time to time. Lots of people see no issue with deloading training when they feel beat up, or using non-linear approaches to their training program. I see no reason why a diet should be any different. [/quote]
I think this works well in reverse as well.
Longer periods of bulking broken up with short mini-cuts to balance out.
[quote]Mtag666 wrote:
I find it interesting how most natural guys cutting (team 3DMJ especially) are generally using 16-20 week preps, or even longer sometimes. Seems different than what was recommended just a few years ago[/quote]
A recent (I think) 3DMJ video with Eric Helms talked about this. It was pretty neat, he actually recommended dieting long enough and early enough that you are contest ready 2 to 3 weeks early and then reverse dieting into the show.
My own experience has shown that I look pretty darn good a week or two into reverse dieting. So I definitely think there is something too longer dieting if you do it smart.
[quote]anthropocentric wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Just a note to the op, as you can see, that advice given is meant to help avoid lengthy periods of dieting.
Your body adapts over time to drastic caloric restriction. Your mental state and feelings of well being are more important to long term success in what you are trying to do than trying to hold out the longest on a restricted caloric diet.[/quote]
You are missing the point – this is NOT drastic caloric restriction. You are bringing in terms irrelevant to the conversation.
[/quote]
Whether it is “drastic” or not isn’t the issue. If his mental well being is being effected and it negatively affects his training, it makes sense to address that…not push on and ignore it.
[quote]
OP has lost LESS than a pound per week. So he is eating within 500 calories of maintenance and/or engaging in effective fat loss program to help preserve lean mass. [/quote]
Whether he loses muscle mass or not is based on many more factors than this.
[quote]
The advice to OP in this thread that makes sense is – continue with the “slow” cut and adjust macros on a daily/weekly basis according to how your body feels. [/quote]
Why would someone just continue if they are seeing significant issues from what they are doing?
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
OP, what are you daily macros? What exactly is “low carb” to you? [/quote]
My weekly averages for macros are close to 80g fat, 150g carbs, 200g protein. I am 5’8", 175 lbs, 40yo. I generally do 3 or 4 days of carbs ~75g, and 2 days at ~225g carbs. Macros are calculated using the Loseit! app, so about 25g of those 75g are green leafy veggies, which many guys don’t count. About once every 6-8 weeks I have a couple days of higher carbs, so I don’t bonk doing outdoor activities (skiing, backpacking, landscaping, etc.)
I’ve been weight training for 22yrs. I was “that guy” - trained like I was on AAS but without juice - eat everything in sight, train as hard as I could, deload when I got stale. I was 37yo before I realized that natural athletes should devote 75% of their planning to diet, and 25% to training. I’m an intermediate by most definitions - Deadlift 2.4xBW, Seated OHP 0.9xBW, Snatch 1xBW, Bench BW for 15 reps all in the last 90 days.
My OQ was more about when to switch to the reverse diet. I tried a reverse diet last fall after 8 months of slow cutting. With a 500 cal/day increase (from 2100 to 2600) I added more than an inch to my waist in 4 weeks. My lifts all went up, but I am guessing it was at best 50/50 fat/muscle. Doing further reading, many, including CT, recommend only deficit or maintenance until you are fairly lean.
I am being honest with myself that I am probably not lean enough yet to jump back to gains. Visible abs seems like an obvious milestone, but I’m having a hard time getting there. Is it as simple as “cut until you can’t cut anymore, then add 100-200 kcals at a time until you start getting softer.” Seems like the difference between ‘maintain’ and ‘grow’ would be a matter of how slowly I increase calories, and the macros and timing of the increases. Is that right?
Would the increases in cals be less likely to add fat if they are all protein or all healthy oils? Does the promise that “once lean enough, the body can handle eating ‘less clean’ on occasion” apply to someone like me, getting to a decent state of leanness for the first time ever?
Thanks for all the replies. You obviously have me thinking about this differently already…
On paper an increase in cals is less likely accumulate as fat if it comes from pro but real world application is hit or miss
How so you feel physically and mentally? IMO non competitors should use that as a judge when a cut should be done.
A reverse diet IMO should be as slow as possible while retaining sanity. I think it gives the bodies metabolism more time to adapt and increase with the increase in calories without adding fat or as much fat as larger jumps does.
Also getting and being lean shouldn’t be an excuse to try and eat like crap. But also I think fitting some treats into a diet is a good thing. Just fit it in your macros.
From personal experience I can say that trying to put the brakes on a diet and holding weight for a while is pretty stupid. It’s demotivating making zero progress on your physique and finding that nothing magical is happening to your metabolism during that time.
Seeing as you’re hitting PRs and have some room in your macros to drop them lower in the coming weeks, I say keep going for it. Read CT’s writings on “the body fat dead zone,” it seems like you’re on the cusp of some awesome things happening with your physique.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
On paper an increase in cals is less likely accumulate as fat if it comes from pro but real world application is hit or miss
How so you feel physically and mentally? IMO non competitors should use that as a judge when a cut should be done.
A reverse diet IMO should be as slow as possible while retaining sanity. I think it gives the bodies metabolism more time to adapt and increase with the increase in calories without adding fat or as much fat as larger jumps does.
Also getting and being lean shouldn’t be an excuse to try and eat like crap. But also I think fitting some treats into a diet is a good thing. Just fit it in your macros. [/quote]
Good points. I have been dragging lately. Consecutive days below 80g of carbs while lifting can get tough. I tend to get very unfocused and lethargic - like jetlag or if I stayed up til 3am and then went to work at 7am. My lifts this week are also down.
Some well-meaning family recently made comments that my efforts are “starting to get a little extreme.” I take those as signs that things are going right, since these usually come up when I skip dessert. LOL. However, the impact on mood is tougher to justify.
The other poster’s comment about CT’s “fat dead zone” seems like an accurate assessment. I am also optimistic it won’t be more than one or two strict cuts before my abs start to really show. Cutting 8 inches off my waist has revealed a little “loose skin” phenomenon around my navel. Another good sign…
I think I’ll add back in a little more protein, maybe some post-workout carbs on heavy days, see how that goes.
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
From personal experience I can say that trying to put the brakes on a diet and holding weight for a while is pretty stupid. It’s demotivating making zero progress on your physique and finding that nothing magical is happening to your metabolism during that time.[/quote]
That would actually be very wrong.
You could aid your metabolism by doing this if on an extended calorie diet where you were depleted.
You call something as useful as that “stupid”.
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.
I agree with browndisaster, OP. As long as your lifts aren’t suffering, you probably aren’t losing muscle. This was said by CT himself. Don’t be afraid to keep pushing it. Also, X, your last statement applies to you so strongly that it’s almost laughably ironic that you posted it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.[/quote]
Are you trying to be ironic?
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.[/quote]
Are you trying to be ironic?[/quote]
Not at all.
Acting like taking a break from dieting is “stupid” in all cases is what everyone here should be disagreeing with.
It is interesting you would rather fight with me than make sure the wrong information is dealt with.
[quote]J. Prufrock wrote:
I agree with browndisaster, OP. As long as your lifts aren’t suffering, you probably aren’t losing muscle. This was said by CT himself. Don’t be afraid to keep pushing it. Also, X, your last statement applies to you so strongly that it’s almost laughably ironic that you posted it.[/quote]
This board is suffering from this crap.
Anyone IGNORING this to tell someone to keep doing what they are is not looking out for the best interests of the OP.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.[/quote]
Are you trying to be ironic?[/quote]
Not at all.
Acting like taking a break from dieting is “stupid” in all cases is what everyone here should be disagreeing with.
It is interesting you would rather fight with me than make sure the wrong information is dealt with.[/quote]
What do you define a “break” as though?
A break could be considered as little as a cheat meal, which I don’t think anyone here would disagree with.
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.[/quote]
Are you trying to be ironic?[/quote]
Not at all.
Acting like taking a break from dieting is “stupid” in all cases is what everyone here should be disagreeing with.
It is interesting you would rather fight with me than make sure the wrong information is dealt with.[/quote]
What do you define a “break” as though?
A break could be considered as little as a cheat meal, which I don’t think anyone here would disagree with.[/quote]
That is why, like has been stated 100 times over, you base it on results seen.
More goes into this than jumping on a caloric restricted diet and trying to hold out the longest.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.[/quote]
Are you trying to be ironic?[/quote]
Not at all.
Acting like taking a break from dieting is “stupid” in all cases is what everyone here should be disagreeing with.
It is interesting you would rather fight with me than make sure the wrong information is dealt with.[/quote]
What do you define a “break” as though?
A break could be considered as little as a cheat meal, which I don’t think anyone here would disagree with.[/quote]
That is why, like has been stated 100 times over, you base it on results seen.
More goes into this than jumping on a caloric restricted diet and trying to hold out the longest.
[/quote]
Again, what do you define a “break” as though?
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]RATTLEHEAD wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Maybe some of you should try not fighting every piece of information that doesn’t immediately fall in line with what you want to believe.[/quote]
Are you trying to be ironic?[/quote]
Not at all.
Acting like taking a break from dieting is “stupid” in all cases is what everyone here should be disagreeing with.
It is interesting you would rather fight with me than make sure the wrong information is dealt with.[/quote]
What do you define a “break” as though?
A break could be considered as little as a cheat meal, which I don’t think anyone here would disagree with.[/quote]
That is why, like has been stated 100 times over, you base it on results seen.
More goes into this than jumping on a caloric restricted diet and trying to hold out the longest.
[/quote]
Again, what do you define a “break” as though?
[/quote]
There is no ONE answer to that.
That is why I listed times as far as months spent dieting.
Did you read any of that?