Ask Moshe

JB:

I’ve tried to read it, and got confused!

What is the difference between (a)“Synagogue”; (a) “Temple” and (a) “Shul”?

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

What is the difference between (a)“Synagogue”; (a) “Temple” and (a) “Shul”?

[/quote]

They are all kind of the same thing – the Jewish place of worship.

Orthodox use the word “shul,” which is Yiddish. It means “school,” and emphasizes the synagogue’s role as a place of study.

Conservative Jews usually use the word “synagogue,” which means “place of assembly” (Christians get “synod” from this).

Deformed, er Reform, Jews use the word “temple,” because they consider their synagogues to be a replacement for “The Temple” in Jerusalem due to their really bad theology and rejection of the fact that, yes, Israel is our home.

The use of the word “temple” grates on the ears of observant Jews because there is one “Temple.”

The word “shul,” on the other hand, is unfamiliar to many Reform because they read the New York Times instead of the Torah and are more likely to speak Hindi than Yiddish.

When in doubt, use “synagogue” and it is accurate for all.

I can never remember how to spell “synagogue” in English, so I use “shul” regardless.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

What is the difference between (a)“Synagogue”; (a) “Temple” and (a) “Shul”?

[/quote]

They are all kind of the same thing – the Jewish place of worship.

Orthodox use the word “shul,” which is Yiddish. It means “school,” and emphasizes the synagogue’s role as a place of study.

Conservative Jews usually use the word “synagogue,” which means “place of assembly” (Christians get “synod” from this).

Deformed, er Reform, Jews use the word “temple,” because they consider their synagogues to be a replacement for “The Temple” in Jerusalem due to their really bad theology and rejection of the fact that, yes, Israel is our home.

The use of the word “temple” grates on the ears of observant Jews because there is one “Temple.”

The word “shul,” on the other hand, is unfamiliar to many Reform because they read the New York Times instead of the Torah and are more likely to speak Hindi than Yiddish.

When in doubt, use “synagogue” and it is accurate for all.

I can never remember how to spell “synagogue” in English, so I use “shul” regardless.[/quote]

This is my favorite thread…thanks for the info JB.

Agree.

Very informative. Thanks, JB.

Mufasa

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

Also, aside from the Sephardis, there are the Mizrahim Jews who are the Jews that never left the ME and definitely do not look European. And then the Iranian Jews, who look no different than Persian Iranians. Plenty of these people currently in Israel. I wonder if they are treated the same as the Ashkenazis.

It would be cool if Jewbacca could comment on that, even though it’s a tangent to the topic.[/quote]

In Israel, every citizen at age 16 (maybe 15, I’ve forgotten) gets an ID card called a “Teudat Zehut.” Has the same stuff on it you’d expect on a driver’s license, and is good forever. It comes with a little paper part that has things like updated address, voting district, etc.

Up until 2005, it would list your ethnicity ----- Jewish, Arab, druze, and a couple others I have forgotten. Regarding Jews, it never distinguished between Ashkenazim (European), Mizrahim (never left or from arab countries), or Sephardic (Spanish/most Persian). Just “Jewish.”

An interesting problem had developed because who is “Jewish for Aliyah” (immigration) is different for “Jewish under Jewish law.” For example, you could have 3 Jewish grandparents, but your mother’s mother was not Jewish, so you are not Jewish (unless you converted), even if Hitler sure would have cooked your ass. Similarly, Reform converts to Judaism could make aliyah to Israel, but only Orthodox conversions are recognized. (Orthodox conversions make someone as Jewish as me. So an arab who converts would have been Jewish for all purposes, and would be so reflected on his or her card. Thethirdruffian, assuming he really goes through orthodox conversion, will be fully Jewish.)

Anyway, this was a common issue for immigrants/non-Jewish spouses, etc, especially from Russia. For a while, there ethnicity was simply blank. Or said “Russian” Or “Jewish for Aliyah” or whatever.

Then Israeli Christian arabs wanted to be a different category from Muslim arabs, because the Christian arabs are much more likely to be white collar and participate in Israeli society — in fact, they are now represented as a seperate group and I think the Christian arabs have demanded to be subject to the draft, just like Jews and Druze.

Regardless, we decided it was stupid thing to have on an ID card and removed the line from the card. Israelis are Israelis, regardless of ethnicity.

++++++++++++++

Israel issues cards to arabs in PA-controlled Judea and Samaria who want to come-and-go in Israel — basically a “green card” so they can come work or rent an apartment or whatever if they don’t want to live under the thumb of the PA, but have chosen not to be Israeli citizens for whatever reason.

They come in two or three colors, I think, perhaps more, but are a different color than Israeli-citizen cards, which is how the guards know who to stop — everyone hangs the card on a lanyard around your neck when in an area with checkpoints to speed up the process.

One color is pretty much “free to cross” (because you’ve done necessary background checks), another is “check me” and yet another is “I cant cross” except to go to a hospital Israel or other important business. This last one is what people who have been busted doing terrorist things and get out of prison get. They are generally bad guys.

+++++++++++++++
Regarding racial discrimination in Israel among Jewish groups – it’s there to some degree I suspect. The Jews from Ethiopea probably had it the worst, but it wasn’t due to “blackness,” but rather due to people questioning if they are really Jewish. We’re now a generation into that, and every kid gets drafted and anyone with disputed Jewish heritage has an Orthodox conversion, so that is pretty much resolved itself.

The Mizrahim in the old city of Jerusalem hate everyone, so they are pricky to everyone because they are ironically anti-zionist in a weird sort of way. This, too, is getting better.

There is, of course, Jewish/Christian/Muslim tensions in Israel, but not nearly like it is anywhere else. The Christians arabs have had a change of heart and know that Israel is the only country in the ME where they have a fair shot. Israeli Muslim arabs are not nearly as radicalized as elsewhere.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

…[/quote]

…[/quote]

Thank you for the detailed response. Always informative to get the story from people who live it. I suppose it would be counterproductive for different Jewish groups to not be treated equally in Israel. Good stuff.

Side note: Israel would probably benefit from propaganda showing how different groups of people are treated in Israel. Most people don’t know a Palestinian Arab living in Israel is treated with far more dignity than a Palestinian living in one of the neighboring Arab countries.

There is or at least certainly was discrimination between the Ashkenaz and Sephardic/Mizrachi jews. Just look where they put the Morrocan Jews after 1948 they stuck them in the Negev where as the Ashkenaz had much better settlements. My father and his siblings where all born in Beer Sheba in a home my grandfather built with his own hands.

Another example. People would prefer to be treated by a medical doctor who has an ashkanaz name versus one who has a sephardic name. These sorts of things is what I mean by discrimination. This is not everyone but this sort of thinking is prevalent.

Now days this sort of Jewish hierarchy has been diminished but certain stereotypes persist. Dating between Ashkenaz and Sephardic is much more common and I don’t believe the youth today really care anymore.

For me my mother is European so every time I am in Israel, Netanya especially I am addressed in Russian. No one realizes I am Moroccan.

Here is a hilarious interaction between at Moroccan and Russian in Israel that showcases what I mentioned above. It has subtitles but even still you can probably hear this russians accent its really prevalent in his hebrew. Really funny video.

Israel. 8th May. A conversation between guard with the driver. - YouTube

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

Also, aside from the Sephardis, there are the Mizrahim Jews who are the Jews that never left the ME and definitely do not look European. And then the Iranian Jews, who look no different than Persian Iranians. Plenty of these people currently in Israel. I wonder if they are treated the same as the Ashkenazis.

It would be cool if Jewbacca could comment on that, even though it’s a tangent to the topic.[/quote]

In Israel, every citizen at age 16 (maybe 15, I’ve forgotten) gets an ID card called a “Teudat Zehut.” Has the same stuff on it you’d expect on a driver’s license, and is good forever. It comes with a little paper part that has things like updated address, voting district, etc.

Up until 2005, it would list your ethnicity ----- Jewish, Arab, druze, and a couple others I have forgotten. Regarding Jews, it never distinguished between Ashkenazim (European), Mizrahim (never left or from arab countries), or Sephardic (Spanish/most Persian). Just “Jewish.”

An interesting problem had developed because who is “Jewish for Aliyah” (immigration) is different for “Jewish under Jewish law.” For example, you could have 3 Jewish grandparents, but your mother’s mother was not Jewish, so you are not Jewish (unless you converted), even if Hitler sure would have cooked your ass. Similarly, Reform converts to Judaism could make aliyah to Israel, but only Orthodox conversions are recognized. (Orthodox conversions make someone as Jewish as me. So an arab who converts would have been Jewish for all purposes, and would be so reflected on his or her card. Thethirdruffian, assuming he really goes through orthodox conversion, will be fully Jewish.)

Anyway, this was a common issue for immigrants/non-Jewish spouses, etc, especially from Russia. For a while, there ethnicity was simply blank. Or said “Russian” Or “Jewish for Aliyah” or whatever.

Then Israeli Christian arabs wanted to be a different category from Muslim arabs, because the Christian arabs are much more likely to be white collar and participate in Israeli society — in fact, they are now represented as a seperate group and I think the Christian arabs have demanded to be subject to the draft, just like Jews and Druze.

Regardless, we decided it was stupid thing to have on an ID card and removed the line from the card. Israelis are Israelis, regardless of ethnicity.

++++++++++++++

Israel issues cards to arabs in PA-controlled Judea and Samaria who want to come-and-go in Israel — basically a “green card” so they can come work or rent an apartment or whatever if they don’t want to live under the thumb of the PA, but have chosen not to be Israeli citizens for whatever reason.

They come in two or three colors, I think, perhaps more, but are a different color than Israeli-citizen cards, which is how the guards know who to stop — everyone hangs the card on a lanyard around your neck when in an area with checkpoints to speed up the process.

One color is pretty much “free to cross” (because you’ve done necessary background checks), another is “check me” and yet another is “I cant cross” except to go to a hospital Israel or other important business. This last one is what people who have been busted doing terrorist things and get out of prison get. They are generally bad guys.

+++++++++++++++
Regarding racial discrimination in Israel among Jewish groups – it’s there to some degree I suspect. The Jews from Ethiopea probably had it the worst, but it wasn’t due to “blackness,” but rather due to people questioning if they are really Jewish. We’re now a generation into that, and every kid gets drafted and anyone with disputed Jewish heritage has an Orthodox conversion, so that is pretty much resolved itself.

The Mizrahim in the old city of Jerusalem hate everyone, so they are pricky to everyone because they are ironically anti-zionist in a weird sort of way. This, too, is getting better.

There is, of course, Jewish/Christian/Muslim tensions in Israel, but not nearly like it is anywhere else. The Christians arabs have had a change of heart and know that Israel is the only country in the ME where they have a fair shot. Israeli Muslim arabs are not nearly as radicalized as elsewhere.[/quote]

[quote]A-rod wrote:
My father and his siblings where all born in Beer Sheba in a home my grandfather built with his own hands.

[/quote]

Hello, neighbor. Born and raised in Gush Katif.

You were just down 25. I built stuff with my own hands, too.

Namely endless greenhouses that all got burned down.

Well, Archie Bunker could have told you this (google if you don’t know).

And Be’er Sheva, too. Seems everyone there is Russian now. They speak to me in Russian and get annoyed I don’t speak Russian.

So I guess you would be in agreement with me then that there is discrimination.

Also I am not a sabra. First generation in the states but I go back frequently. My Mom and brothers just landed there two days ago against my wishes. I have not heard about Russians in Beer Sheba. But now that I think about it I do recall it having a notable Kafkaz population. What would Israel do without the Kafkaz?

So you were from Gush Katif. It is funny because me and my father use that as an example of how Gaza operates and the mentality those people have. Where once was a thriving agricultural community is now nothing. I could be mistaken it might not be Gush Katif. But it was an Israeli settlement that once it became under Gaza authority stopped being productive.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]A-rod wrote:
My father and his siblings where all born in Beer Sheba in a home my grandfather built with his own hands.

[/quote]

Hello, neighbor. Born and raised in Gush Katif.

You were just down 25. I built stuff with my own hands, too.

Namely endless greenhouses that all got burned down.

Well, Archie Bunker could have told you this (google if you don’t know).

And Be’er Sheva, too. Seems everyone there is Russian now. They speak to me in Russian and get annoyed I don’t speak Russian.
[/quote]

@JB - just curious, are you Lubavitch? Satmar? I’m guessing Lubavitch. Anyway, I’ve noticed that a lot of Russian Jews are very pro-Russian. For example, Michael Savage - I consider him a kook but he can be funny - has taken a really pro-Russian position on the Ukrainian crisis. Is this common with Russian Jews? How about during the Cold War?

[quote]A-rod wrote:
So I guess you would be in agreement with me then that there is discrimination.
[/quote]
I would quibble with “is,” in that I don’t think it’s an issue now, and really wasn’t a huge issue before. My son-in-law, for example, is Jewish by way of Iran, married to my very blond, green-eyed, daughter. The only controversy I can think of was which flavor of Orthodox Shul they would attend. I think they’ve changed back-and-forth a couple times based on geography and if they like the Rabbi. Being universally hated by ones’ neighbors tends to make little crap disappear. In a way, the persecution is a blessing to unify the Jewish people back from the Diaspora.

It was the Gush. Picture attached is Gush. (It’s just from wikipedia, but is the beach where I learned to surf. Arguably the prettiest beach in the entire Med.)

We left hundreds of greenhouses that employed thousands of people, including many, many, al-Mawasi Bedouins, with whom we had close friendships. My family was the biggest supplier of geraniums to Europe, if any European is wondering why you weren’t able to find geraniums in your local garden stores for many years.

The PA just burned it all down or let it ruin.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
@JB - just curious, are you Lubavitch? Satmar? I’m guessing Lubavitch.
[/quote]
Lubavitch by default due to constant international traveling. It’s like the McDonalds of Orthodox Judaism. You know what you get will be clean and OK, if not outstanding. They also make an effort to court travelers and are very welcoming.

[quote]

Anyway, I’ve noticed that a lot of Russian Jews are very pro-Russian. For example, Michael Savage - I consider him a kook but he can be funny - has taken a really pro-Russian position on the Ukrainian crisis. Is this common with Russian Jews? How about during the Cold War?[/quote]

News to me. The most patriotic, anti-communist, people in Israel are the Russian immigrants. Stalin killed more Jewish people than Hitler, after all.

Is there some leaning towards Putin? Maybe because Obama is so weak and clearly anti-Israel.

Ukraine is a odd situation. The Ukrainians have a serious neo-Nazi element among them and have a pretty bad history towards the Jewish people (think “Fiddler on the Roof”). They allied with Hitler against Stalin and their Waffen SS was among the nastiest. But also fought the Nazis (“business before pleasure” is the joke in the Ukraine). Long story short, I have no idea who the “good guys” are there. Probably the Ukrainians.

Regarding Michael Weiner (stage name: Savage), he’s for whatever gets him ratings. I do agree with him that “liberalism is a mental disorder,” but other than that, I ignore him.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Regarding Michael Weiner (stage name: Savage), he’s for whatever gets him ratings. I do agree with him that “liberalism is a mental disorder,” but other than that, I ignore him.

[/quote]

Weiner is a loon. Yesterday he was talking about the Malaysian airliner that crashed in the Ukraine and he floated out a whole lot of bizarre conspiracy theories - The CIA shot it down to distract from Obama’s border crisis, the Ukrainians did it to make the Russians look bad, the Ukranians did it thinking it was Putin’s presidential plane etc. then a caller rang up and said it was “definitely” the International Monetary Fund that shot it down and Weiner said yeah maybe.

This may have been asked… but this is a long, two year thread.

What say you if your daughter (or hypothetical daughter if you don’t have one), wanted to marry a Christian man?

[quote]AliveAgain36 wrote:
What say you if your daughter (or hypothetical daughter if you don’t have one), wanted to marry a Christian man?[/quote]

It’s a non-issue because my daughters are Orthodox and very observant.

If your question is “in general,” intermarriage is against the Law of Mt. Sinai and is no marriage at all.

If your question is some sort of racial question, I’d very much welcome a non-Jewish son-in-law who had an Orthodox conversion. Jews-by-choice are generally the finest Jews, as they knew exactly what they are getting into.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
The 25/25/50 rule of thumb is probably pretty common.

You pay dues to a shul, so they tend to have a reasonable operating budget.[/quote]

Well, thank you. Shalom.

I know you have answered this before (I believe, I just can’t find it).

Any references/books to learn Hebrew (I have been to Israel and want to go back (even get a 2nd passport from Israel, now that American’s can’t get a bank account/mortgage/life insurance outside of America (of course you can if you hop over to Bangkok or other non-info sharing treaty countries)).

Also Rabbi’s to read/study from about the Torah and other Jewish texts?

P.S. I have recently been in bed rest. Any favorite TV shows or movies you like? I recently watched Fill the Void (if you have seen it, thoughts on it and it is accurate (obviously it is a romantic movie, but it is about the only movie I can find on Hasidic jews).

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Any references/books to learn Hebrew

[/quote]

I really don’t. Grew up speaking it, so it’s never been an issue. I travel a lot, and I like Rosetta Stone products. After that, I’d probably just call a local shul and ask them who tutors.

That’s just a huge question. It depends on your religious point of view and your base knowledge. I understand a lot of gentiles read “Basic Judaism” by Milton Steinberg, and it is a standard in a lot of Conservative conversion classes.

[quote]
Any favorite TV shows or movies you like? [/quote]

I really watch Israeli news, old US sitcoms, and rugby, so I really can’t be useful there, either. A lot of Israel TV stations stream live on the WWW and have English subtitles.

Tonight is the 9th of Av, as is all day tomorrow. So, what is this?

The 9th of Av, or Tisha b’Av, commemorates a list of catastrophes so severe it’s clearly a day specially cursed by G-d.

Picture this: The year is 1313 BCE. The Israelites are in the desert, recently having experienced the miraculous Exodus, and are now poised to enter the Promised Land. But first they dispatch a reconnaissance mission to assist in formulating a prudent battle strategy. The spies return on the eighth day of Av and report that the land is unconquerable. The Canaanites look to be some tough sons of bitches.

That night, the 9th of Av, the people pretty much rebel. They insist that they’d rather go back to Egypt than be slaughtered by the Canaanites. G-d is highly displeased by this public demonstration of lack of faith and distrust in His power, and consequently that generation of Israelites never enters the Holy Land. Only their children have that privilege, after wandering in the desert for another 38 years.

Golden Calf? Yep.

Flash forward 1000 years. Persia destroys the First Temple ---- on the 9th of Av (423 BCE).

Five centuries later (in 69 CE), as the Romans destroy the Second Temple ----- on the 9th of Av.

When the Jews rebelled against Roman rule, they believed that their leader, Simon bar Kochba, would fulfill their messianic longings. But their hopes were cruelly dashed in 133 CE as the Jewish rebels were brutally butchered in the final battle at Betar. The date of the massacre? Of course — the 9th of Av!

One year after their conquest of Betar, the Romans plowed over the Temple Mount, our nation’s holiest site.

First crusade? Yep.

The Jews were expelled from England in 1290 CE on, you guessed it, Tisha b’Av. In 1492,

The Golden Age of Spain came to a close when Queen Isabella and her husband Ferdinand ordered that the Jews be banished from the land. The edict of expulsion was signed on March 31, 1492, and the Jews were given exactly four months to put their affairs in order and leave the country. The Hebrew date on which no Jew was allowed any longer to remain in the land where he had enjoyed welcome and prosperity? Oh, by now you know it — the 9th of Av.

The Jews were expelled from England in 1290 CE on, you guessed it, Tisha b’Av.

Ready forone more? World War II and the Shoa, historians conclude, was actually the long drawn-out conclusion of World War I that began in 1914. And yes, amazingly enough, Germany declared war on Rus, effectively catapulting the First World War into motion, on the 9th of Av, Tisha b’Av.

What day did the final paperwork go for the “Final Solution” — one guess.

AMIA bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires? Yep.

(For Republicans, it was also the day Barack Obama gave his first national speech at the DNC convention. And it’s his birthday this year. So take that for what it is.)

What do you make of all this?

Jewish People see this as another confirmation of the deeply held conviction that history isn’t haphazard; events — even terrible ones – -are part of a Divine plan and have spiritual meaning. The message of time is that everything has a rational purpose, even though we don’t understand it.

The “holiday” is a fast day. Lamentations is read and the day generally sucks.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Tonight is the 9th of Av, as is all day tomorrow. So, what is this?

The 9th of Av, or Tisha b’Av, commemorates a list of catastrophes so severe it’s clearly a day specially cursed by G-d.

Picture this: The year is 1313 BCE. The Israelites are in the desert, recently having experienced the miraculous Exodus, and are now poised to enter the Promised Land. But first they dispatch a reconnaissance mission to assist in formulating a prudent battle strategy. The spies return on the eighth day of Av and report that the land is unconquerable. The Canaanites look to be some tough sons of bitches.

That night, the 9th of Av, the people pretty much rebel. They insist that they’d rather go back to Egypt than be slaughtered by the Canaanites. G-d is highly displeased by this public demonstration of lack of faith and distrust in His power, and consequently that generation of Israelites never enters the Holy Land. Only their children have that privilege, after wandering in the desert for another 38 years.

Golden Calf? Yep.

Flash forward 1000 years. Persia destroys the First Temple ---- on the 9th of Av (423 BCE).

Five centuries later (in 69 CE), as the Romans destroy the Second Temple ----- on the 9th of Av.

When the Jews rebelled against Roman rule, they believed that their leader, Simon bar Kochba, would fulfill their messianic longings. But their hopes were cruelly dashed in 133 CE as the Jewish rebels were brutally butchered in the final battle at Betar. The date of the massacre? Of course — the 9th of Av!

One year after their conquest of Betar, the Romans plowed over the Temple Mount, our nation’s holiest site.

First crusade? Yep.

The Jews were expelled from England in 1290 CE on, you guessed it, Tisha b’Av. In 1492,

The Golden Age of Spain came to a close when Queen Isabella and her husband Ferdinand ordered that the Jews be banished from the land. The edict of expulsion was signed on March 31, 1492, and the Jews were given exactly four months to put their affairs in order and leave the country. The Hebrew date on which no Jew was allowed any longer to remain in the land where he had enjoyed welcome and prosperity? Oh, by now you know it — the 9th of Av.

The Jews were expelled from England in 1290 CE on, you guessed it, Tisha b’Av.

Ready forone more? World War II and the Shoa, historians conclude, was actually the long drawn-out conclusion of World War I that began in 1914. And yes, amazingly enough, Germany declared war on Rus, effectively catapulting the First World War into motion, on the 9th of Av, Tisha b’Av.

What day did the final paperwork go for the “Final Solution” — one guess.

AMIA bombing of the Jewish community center in Buenos Aires? Yep.

(For Republicans, it was also the day Barack Obama gave his first national speech at the DNC convention. And it’s his birthday this year. So take that for what it is.)

What do you make of all this?

Jewish People see this as another confirmation of the deeply held conviction that history isn’t haphazard; events — even terrible ones – -are part of a Divine plan and have spiritual meaning. The message of time is that everything has a rational purpose, even though we don’t understand it.

The “holiday” is a fast day. Lamentations is read and the day generally sucks.

[/quote]

Want a hug?