Articles on Why Free Squating is Better?

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Westclock wrote:
Anyone recommending using a smith machine for squats is a Nimrod.

The range of motion is really screwy and you have to put your knees really far forward just to get a decent position.

I would go as far as to say squatting on a smith machine is not only more dangerous long term knee wise, but also remarkably inferior to barbell squats.

Squats are not dangerous at all as even without safety pegs you can always just drop the bar off your back, and if you have pegs and you get stuck at the bottom you just sit down and the pegs catch it.

How can anyone think a smith machine is safer than pegs ? I dont have to rotate a bar around to use a peg, I just drop 400 pounds off my back.

And saying your a “body builder” is no excuse for being useless strength wise.

Just because you train for size doesn’t mean you should be squatting with pussy weight.

I you want to look muscular but be completely useless, just wear one of those padded superman chests kids wear on Halloween.

I’m mightily curious as to what your stats are…

#Edit:
Occupation:
Weight: 215
Height: 6’
Body fat %: 9-10%
Years Training: 5

uh-uh … Guess you better have an elite total to be
spouting the kind of nonsense in that post I quoted…

I believe I answered the question on my raw total in the other thread you asked me in. I never claimed to be elite, I do claim to know a little something about squatting and knee health.

Ive had knee surgery as a result of my earlier mistakes.

Yeah, it’s all good man, never mind.
As I said somewhere else, there are different ways to squat in the smith and when none of those works don’t do them… As a powerlifter: Don’t do them at all (I guess), and sure as hell don’t do 1-4 rep max effort work in there…
But for bodybuilders they can be really useful IF you can do them.
Rotate them with other Quad exercises to keep from stalling etc etc… All been said.

Sorry to hear about your injury, btw… Mind saying what the exact injury was ? (just out of curiosity)

#Edit: It’s past midnight over here, so good night guys…

I tore the little disc the knee rides on. Called a meniscus tear or something.

[/quote]

I’d like to know how you went about solving this knee problem as well, and how to take better care of it(mine won’t last until 500lbs unfortunately). I’ve already tried adding straps and I take my fish oil caps every day but I’m experiencing more and more pain as time passes(its not horrible but it is a nuisance.)

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Anyone recommending using a smith machine for squats is a Nimrod.

The range of motion is really screwy and you have to put your knees really far forward just to get a decent position.

I would go as far as to say squatting on a smith machine is not only more dangerous long term knee wise, but also remarkably inferior to barbell squats.

Squats are not dangerous at all as even without safety pegs you can always just drop the bar off your back, and if you have pegs and you get stuck at the bottom you just sit down and the pegs catch it.

How can anyone think a smith machine is safer than pegs ? I dont have to rotate a bar around to use a peg, I just drop 400 pounds off my back.

And saying your a “body builder” is no excuse for being useless strength wise.

Just because you train for size doesn’t mean you should be squatting with pussy weight.

I you want to look muscular but be completely useless, just wear one of those padded superman chests kids wear on Halloween.[/quote]

It’s very possible she was talking about one of those smith machines that also goes forward and backward, not just up and down.

The following was written by someone on the MensHealth Forum named Dragns.

I know I know, Mens Health. The thing about Mens Health though, is that the info they give on excersise and nutrition, while not ideal for us “hardcore” guys, is still legit. Either way, this is why Smith Machines are bad. I agree with this article whole heartedly.

And to be honest I’m a little surprised more people don’t feel the same way.

Why You Should Avoid The Smith Machine

Machines are never superior to free weights. Never. Ever. I�??ll say it again�?�.Never. And the Smith machine is the worst of the worst. Yes, I know your trainer or your best friend told you that the Smith is a wonderful thing, and one of the most functional and safest pieces of equipment in the gym. They may have even told you to stop using free weights and to use the Smith because it’s safer. They�??re dead wrong, and I’m going to tell you why.

  1. Pattern Overload Syndrome: The Smith machine locks you into a fixed plane of motion, which can lead to what is known as ‘pattern overload syndrome’. The more fixed the object, the more likely you are to develop a pattern overload, and the Smith follows an extremely fixed pathway. This fixed pathway repetitively loads the same muscles, tendons, ligaments and joints in the same pattern, encouraging micro-trauma that eventually leads to injury.

If you always uses a Smith machine for your bench presses, you end up working the same fibers of the prime movers in the bench press all of the time: triceps brachii, pectoralis major, long-head of the biceps brachii, anterior deltoids, and serratus anterior. You can’t change the pathway; the bar will always be in the same position. This commonly leads to chronic injury over time.

  1. Reduced Stabilizer Training: The weight is stabilized for you. However, joints normally operate in multiple planes, and recruit a myriad of other muscles to help stabilize load. Use of the Smith machine greatly decreases this stabilizer activity. This creates a problem when translating your strength and muscle gains back to real life. If you have not trained the stabilizing muscles, you create size and strength imbalances in these muscles that would normally be assisting in the lift.

In addition, having weak stabilizers will serve to shut down the prime movers before the prime movers are ready to shut down. If the stabilizers cannot maintain joint integrity there is a feedback mechanism that will cause the prime movers to shut down, or �??fail.�?? When you�??re helping your buddy lift that heavy piece of furniture, or pulling that heavy sack of groceries from the back seat of your car, it won�??t be attached to a bar that assists your move and travels in a straight up and down plane of motion.

  1. Compromised Center of Gravity: When you squat with your knees out in front there is added pressure on the spine. When you free bar squat, the path of the bar is traveling over the instep of your foot and you are driving through your natural center of gravity (COG), the COG you create by moving your hips back and bending your knees on the decent of the squat. When you are on a smith machine with your feet positioned out in front, you are causing your body to drive through a false center of gravity.

Now, instead of the weight being over your feet, it is directly in-line with your spine and your feet are out front, placing your new (false) COG somewhere about mid thigh. The problem this poses is that your spine is not in a healthy position to stabilize force. Your hips are there not only to move the lower body, but also, to stabilize forces being placed on the body. If you put them out front you take that ability away from them causing all of the weight to be compressed on the spine without anything to absorb the shock. NOT GOOD!

These principles clearly apply to any exercise you might want to do on the Smith. Take, for example, the squat. Because of the mechanics of the knee joint, the body will alter the natural bar pathway during a free-weight squat to accommodate efficient movement at the knee. A fixed bar pathway doesn’t allow alteration of the plane of motion for efficient movement of the joint, thereby predisposing the knee to harmful overload via lack of accommodation. And, for all of you that like to put your feet out in front of you, in addition to the COG problems outlined above, if your feet are out in front of you, you tend to push back against the bar.

Doing so changes the function of the hamstrings role in the move, removing it�??s stabilizing, protective effects on the knee joint. The result is an increased sheering force on the knee. Again, over time, chronic injury, and even possible traumatic knee injury.

So. Now that you�??re armed with the facts, you know to stay away from the Smith (actually any machine that locks you into one plane or arc of movement, but we�??re taking about the Smith here). Do yourself a favor and get acquainted with the barbells and dumbbells this fine establishment has to offer.

----Dragns

And honestly unless you are a guy who has been lifting longer than 10 years seriously who’s squats are in the upper 5’s and 600’s for freakin reps, you have no business using any type of squating machine.

Dont be lazy, leave your ego in your locker, lower the weight, and learn to squat with a free bar. It doesn’t just make your legs bigger. You all know how sometimes you see those guys with AMAZING physiques that look like they can land back first on a rock and get up and walk away, maybe even busting the shit out of said rock for pissing him off?

Squats do this. Ab thickness, obliques, lower back, and of course tree trunk upper legs and sculpted glutes; that stuff is caused by your freakin torso supporting a loaded bar while keeping it self balanced in order to not die, not by a smith machine holding your hand with its training wheels.

[quote]Steel88 wrote:

I’d like to know how you went about solving this knee problem as well, and how to take better care of it(mine won’t last until 500lbs unfortunately). I’ve already tried adding straps and I take my fish oil caps every day but I’m experiencing more and more pain as time passes(its not horrible but it is a nuisance.)[/quote]

My injury actually did not happen in the rack, I actually got hit in the knee on the field and it twisted under me.

But they did tell me that my over zealous squatting routines were responsible for weakening the joint. Eventually I would have had dramatic failure, whether it was on the field or in the rack.

I had surgery to repair the damage, and I had rehab for several weeks and a brace for a long time. Combined with ice after every workout keeps the pain and swelling down.

Basically you just have to take it easy on the knee afterwards, keep the weight low and really concentrate on perfect form.

Wraps help for support, just make sure you put them on both knees, it feels awkward otherwise. But looking back thats kinda obvious.

I didn’t squat ATG for a long time, I stopped at slightly below parallel just to limit tension on the joint.

I dropped all extension movements from my legs routine, and I did alot of leg press, which does handicap you hamstring wise, but its better than nothing.

I basically ignored the doc, he told to stop squatting.

[quote]mthomps wrote:
And honestly unless you are a guy who has been lifting longer than 10 years seriously who’s squats are in the upper 5’s and 600’s for freakin reps, you have no business using any type of squating machine.

Dont be lazy, leave your ego in your locker, lower the weight, and learn to squat with a free bar. It doesn’t just make your legs bigger. You all know how sometimes you see those guys with AMAZING physiques that look like they can land back first on a rock and get up and walk away, maybe even busting the shit out of said rock for pissing him off?

Squats do this. Ab thickness, obliques, lower back, and of course tree trunk upper legs and sculpted glutes; that stuff is caused by your freakin torso supporting a loaded bar while keeping it self balanced in order to not die, not by a smith machine holding your hand with its training wheels.[/quote]

Dude has it ever occurred to you people that squatting for reps EVERY SINGLE leg workout may not be the best thing, either?
As bodybuilders we usually train in the higher rep ranges, and increasing the weight or reps every session becomes kinda difficult at some point?

So when I hit a plateau, I could do some stupid 10*10 cycle or some other plateau-buster shit that likely does my knees in completely, or I could just be smart and rotate my exercises from the start…
If I still plateau on one, I switch it out for another one for the same muscle-group…

You and you goddamned absolutes…

Nobody cares which exercise theoretically recruits more motor units and whatnot, you get stronger on an exercise and the muscle-groups that it mainly works will get bigger.

An exercise is a tool, use it if it works for you, if not, don’t.

That’s all you should worry about.

I just love how you people argue against practically every huge dude on this forum whenever shit like this comes up:
-Free-weights against machines
-Splits vs TBT
-Bulk vs Slow Gain/Cut/whatever

Have Professor X or I (for example) sustained crippling knee-injuries from using machines ? No, for some straaaaange reason…

  1. Stop name dropping prof x. I know you and everyone else wants the ‘prof x approved’ sticker. 2. You sound like you skimmed my posts, saw keywords ‘do free bar squats’ and thought it was enough to post a rant.

I’ve been at this lifting thing a pretty long time too; over 6 years. I’ve squated and deadlift big weights. I’ve been 215 at 5’ 7" inches, sub 15% bf. I’m not some punk who regurtitates every article posted on this site before they’ve even done anything.

I ain’t talkin’ to already big guys like you. I’m talking to the other 90% of trainies that aren’t big enough yet to worry about lifting dangerous weight.

To all trainies who are starting out or have yet to gain considerable muscle mass: GET PISSED, GET IN THE FUCKIN ZONE, GET IN A POWER RACK.

The base you build a few years from now will thank you for it.

[quote]mthomps wrote:

  1. Stop name dropping prof x. I know you and everyone else wants the ‘prof x approved’ sticker. 2. You sound like you skimmed my posts, saw keywords ‘do free bar squats’ and thought it was enough to post a rant.

I’ve been at this lifting thing a pretty long time too; over 6 years. I’ve squated and deadlift big weights. I’ve been 215 at 5’ 7" inches, sub 15% bf. I’m not some punk who regurtitates every article posted on this site before they’ve even done anything.

I ain’t talkin’ to already big guys like you. I’m talking to the other 90% of trainies that aren’t big enough yet to worry about lifting dangerous weight.

To all trainies who are starting out or have yet to gain considerable muscle mass: GET PISSED, GET IN THE FUCKIN ZONE, GET IN A POWER RACK.

The base you build a few years from now will thank you for it.
[/quote]

My bad, seeing you pictures I stand corrected.
An “experienced” guy like you would obviously know better than me…

Maybe you should take your own advice and “Get in the fuckin zone, Get in a power rack” instead of regurgitating articles.

I would like to know, can I as the Topic creator close it because is going a way that does not help anymore, oppinions are good but I got enougth of them, if there were scientific researches it would be really fine.

Thanks for all the help people, for me this topic is closed.

UB.

Those pictures are over a year and a half old, when I lost 50 pounds of strait lard. The dates on the pictures are also wrong. For some reason they will not delete from my profile. I’ve been trying for a while now.

UB, you wanted articles why, there you go.

[quote]mthomps wrote:
Those pictures are over a year and a half old, when I lost 50 pounds of strait lard. The dates on the pictures are also wrong. For some reason they will not delete from my profile. I’ve been trying for a while now.

UB, you wanted articles why, there you go.[/quote]

How can I get them? Is there a link?

UB.

[quote]Westclock wrote:
Steel88 wrote:

I’d like to know how you went about solving this knee problem as well, and how to take better care of it(mine won’t last until 500lbs unfortunately). I’ve already tried adding straps and I take my fish oil caps every day but I’m experiencing more and more pain as time passes(its not horrible but it is a nuisance.)

My injury actually did not happen in the rack, I actually got hit in the knee on the field and it twisted under me.

But they did tell me that my over zealous squatting routines were responsible for weakening the joint. Eventually I would have had dramatic failure, whether it was on the field or in the rack.

I had surgery to repair the damage, and I had rehab for several weeks and a brace for a long time. Combined with ice after every workout keeps the pain and swelling down.

Basically you just have to take it easy on the knee afterwards, keep the weight low and really concentrate on perfect form.

Wraps help for support, just make sure you put them on both knees, it feels awkward otherwise. But looking back thats kinda obvious.

I didn’t squat ATG for a long time, I stopped at slightly below parallel just to limit tension on the joint.

I dropped all extension movements from my legs routine, and I did alot of leg press, which does handicap you hamstring wise, but its better than nothing.

I basically ignored the doc, he told to stop squatting.

[/quote]

Thanks alot for the info west. I’ve already talked to my doctor about it but he didn’t seem to concerned, anyways I’ll take the appropriate steps necessary when the time comes.

[quote]UBorba wrote:
mthomps wrote:
Those pictures are over a year and a half old, when I lost 50 pounds of strait lard. The dates on the pictures are also wrong. For some reason they will not delete from my profile. I’ve been trying for a while now.

UB, you wanted articles why, there you go.

How can I get them? Is there a link?

UB.[/quote]

Yes, its in message board post format unfortunatly though. Here it is if you can use it.

http://forums.menshealth.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/855109121/m/941103143/r/584103143#584103143