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Article on Effective PWO Drinks?

I seem to remember an article on this site that researched the effectiveness of the PWO drink and then the meal immediately following that - the post post workout meal.

It had some interesting things to say about the PWO meal as well as what you should eat for the PPWO meal - it said the best thing for the PPWO meal was another shake with 2:1 simple carbs to protein.

Does anyone remember this article? Is this, in fact, what would be most effective?

Was it this: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_diet_nutrition_bodybuilding/solving_the_postworkout_puzzle_part_1

Or maybe this: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_diet_nutrition_bodybuilding/solving_the_postworkout_puzzle_part_2

That isn’t the one I was looking for, but that is a wonderful article that answered my questions. Thanks.

I think you were looking for the Barrticle:

Yes, that is the article I am looking for.

Do y’all do this? I can see it getting expensive with the massive amounts of Whey Hydrolysate that would need to be consumed - then again, I have never been one to skimp on my body because of finances…

So the second shake after the PWO shake should be of identical contents?

I use 1 serving of Surge PWO and follow up with a solid meal within an hour.

[quote]HK24719 wrote:
I use 1 serving of Surge PWO and follow up with a solid meal within an hour.[/quote]

I normally do this, but from what I am reading it is more effective to have the multiple PWO drinks. Just something I wanted to try out.

Anyone else care to share their procedure after lifting?

Judging from that Barrticle (I fucking love that, Dave), it sounds like having a serving (or half) of Surge about 1 hour PWO (as the first PWO meal/shake), then another of the same amount 1 hour after THAT, would be ideal.

I hope Dave Barr chimes in.

But I recall reading some research by Alan Aragon that suggested a whey/casein blend increases the rate of muscle-protein synthesis greater than whey protein alone, BECAUSE of the slower digestion rate, and hence yielded higher LBM gains in the long run (which was the duration of the experiment, but I forget the specific length of time).

Also, was it Dave Barr who suggested drinking Surge upon rising?

This stuff is like a damn riddle. I hope Barr chimes in and sheds some light on this whole thing.

Any chance you can find the article/research that suggests a whey/casein blend for great muscle protein synthesis?

Yes, I’ll try to post/send you the newsletter.

Another thing:

If Barr’s article says that protein synthesis is elevated for a good 24 hours PWO, then why does the second PWO drink that he recommends have to be a fast-acting protein like whey hydrolysate?

If it’s for the insulin spike, then couldn’t we just add carbs/BCAAs to a whey/casein protein drink?

Too many questions unanswered. Better to just experiment yourself and gauge how your own body responds.

[quote]Sklander wrote:
This stuff is like a damn riddle. I hope Barr chimes in and sheds some light on this whole thing.

Any chance you can find the article/research that suggests a whey/casein blend for great muscle protein synthesis? [/quote]

LaCroix M, et al. Compared with casein or total milk protein, digestion of milk soluble proteins is too rapid to sustain the anabolic postprandial amino acid requirement. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Nov;84(5):1070-9.

PURPOSE: To compare the postprandial utilization of dietary nitrogen from [15N]-labeled micellar caseins (MC), milk soluble protein isolate (MSPI �?? which is synonymous with whey), and total milk protein (TMP).

METHODS: 23 healthy subjects, 24-31 years old, ingested a meal containing MC, MSPI, or TMP. [15N], a stable isotope of nitrogen, was measured for an 8-hr period in plasma amino acids, proteins, and urea and in urinary
urea.

RESULTS: The transfer of dietary nitrogen to urea occurred earlier after MSPI ingestion than after MC and TMP ingestion, and concentrations remained high for 8 h, concomitantly with higher but transient hyperaminoacidemia
and a higher incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids. In contrast, deamination, postprandial hyperaminoacidemia, and the incorporation of dietary nitrogen into plasma amino acids were lower in the MC and TMP groups. Total postprandial deamination values were highest in the MSPI
group.

CONCLUSIONS: Despite its high Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, MSPI causes a rate of amino acid delivery that is too rapid to sustain an anabolism during the postprandial period. TMP topped the field in all of the tests.

SPONSORSHIP: Arilait Research and the French Office of Research and Technology.

As expected, whey caused an immediate spike in post-meal hyperaminoacidemia. However, this was followed by marked hypoaminoacidemia by the sixth hour after the meal, which was
not seen in the other groups. Also, the transfer of dietary nitrogen to urea was significantly higher in the whey group than in the other groups, especially during the first 2 hours. This means that the rapid and substantial rise in blood amino acids caused by whey was accompanied by a high rate of excretion of its nitrogen component. This led the authors to conclude that
whey�??s higher content of indispensable amino acids (including leucine) was counterbalanced by high rates of amino acid deamination, reducing its potential net anabolic effect compared to the other treatments.

Interestingly (but perhaps not too surprisingly), total milk protein was the superior performer in all parameters, with casein in the middle, and whey in last place. To quote the conclusion, �??This result, together with the hypoaminoacidemia observed 4 h after the ingestion of MSPI, strongly suggests that a too-rapid dietary AA delivery cannot support the anabolic requirement throughout the postprandial period.�?? This is yet another
indication that low-tech, inexpensive cow milk may be an ideal food for supporting muscle tissue, especially for those who don�??t
have (or won�??t bother with) a high meal frequency.

Spirited debate is a fun thing to watch (and participate in). Anssi Manninen, a science journalist and owner of a line of products including whey hydrolysate, wrote a letter in disagreement with the conclusion and entitled his letter, �??Postprandial nitrogen utilization and misinterpretation of data�??. The authors felt this accusatory title was false because as stated in their reply, �??..our conclusion was not a suggestion but a direct demonstration based on tracer kinetic data, and Manninen did not provide any data to suggest any misinterpretation of our data.�??

Manninen contends that the authors�?? conclusion is misleading. He attempts to support his stance by citing one study showing whey hydrolysate beating casein for fat loss and lean mass gain over a period of 10 weeks. This would be a stronger argument if there weren�??t at least two other published trials suggesting that a whey/casein blend is superior for lean mass and strength gains. Manninen fails to mention these trials.

Finally, Manninen states that slow proteins are best suited for prolonged periods between eating, and fast proteins are best used post-workout. Instead of supporting this claim by directly referencing primary research, he references his own secondary research review article on post-exercise recovery. Incidentally, his article makes no mention of how substrates ingested pre-exercise influence post-exercise physiological demands. Nor
does he mention the limitations of the current majority of post-exercise research on overnight-fasted subjects.

The bottom line is that the whey vs. casein post-workout �??battle�?? is not a closed case. There is support on both sides, and currently there�??s more support for a blend of the two proteins than either in isolation. Wait a minute, that�??s how they occur in nature �?? as a blend… And it might be optimal that way, what a concept.

WOW.

So this article claims that the post workout insulin spike is a sham and a casein/whey blend is actually more beneficial than a really fast acting whey hydrolysate. I am blown away.

you don’t think that a guy writing articles on a whey/casein protein manufacturers website, recommending 2 lots of workout drinks may be biased somewhat?

how superior is it to whole food?

I’m sure I’ve seen Berardi using whole food meals rather than liquid at times

Barr seems to have had some abuse recently from some learned folk

I’m gonna use what see work for a lot of people on this forum as well as around me. As a general rule it always seems to boil down to eating like our ancestors ate. We have protein powders and what not now, but I find keeping it as simple and close to ancestral eating as possible to benefit me the most.

Actually, I think a good PWO “meal” - after your liquid shake - would be:

1 cup greek yogurt
4-6 oz raw milk
1 tbsp 100%, unprocessed cocoa powder (optional)
1/2 cup blueberries
1/2 cup blackberries
1 scoop protein powder (whey/casein blend)
small handful of crushed (preferably blanched) almonds or walnuts