Article: 'How Would Jesus Vote?'

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

If that’s your point, I don’t see how it’s relevant.

[/quote]

All the wonderful verses about charity deal with actual charity. Charity doesn’t involve pointing guns at people.

[/quote]

So when the CDN gov’t gives millions of $ in aid to African nations, it would be incorrect to say Canadians are charitable since its source was taxation?

Gotcha. I disagree.[/quote]

Yes, it would be incorrect. If Canadians were charitable by that amount they’d put a check into a envelope themselves and send it off. Without a prison term being a possibility for not doing so.

Presuming the characteristics of such a God is beyond human knowledge. Arrogant in that of all the Universe which is incomprehensible in its scale that some people believe with no reservations that God took a special interest and an active role in uplifting…(insert nation/religion) True, I logically have to keep that possibility open but everything we can observe on this Earth and in the Universe around us leads me to the opposite conclusion, which by no means is concrete.

By the way, why do you favor forcing others to ‘give’ to the poor? No, because they’d starve or some such isn’t an answer. Why do you favor forcing others to ‘give’ to the poor so that they won’t starve?

[quote]Legionary wrote:<<< feel free not to respond to my argument and brush it aside saying its been discussed before.[/quote]Well thanks a bunch. I’ll do just that.

[quote]Legionary wrote:
Presuming the characteristics of such a God is beyond human knowledge. Arrogant in that of all the Universe which is incomprehensible in its scale that some people believe with no reservations that God took a special interest and an active role in uplifting…(insert nation/religion) True, I logically have to keep that possibility open but everything we can observe on this Earth and in the Universe around us leads me to the opposite conclusion, which by no means is concrete. [/quote]
Here’s the best I’ll do for ya. A couple years ago to a Jehovah’s Witness.[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Try this:
Take a paper plate and about an inch or so from the edge somewhere make the smallest dot you can with a pencil. The plate represents our galaxy and the dot our solar system. In the middle of our solar system is a flaming ball of gas that emits more energy in one second than every possible man made source in history combined to date.

It is so far away that it takes 13 minutes for it’s light to reach your skin traveling 186,000 miles a second and we are pretty close compared to some of the other planets. That’s one solar system, one dot, in one galaxy, one paper plate.

Now go throw the plate into the middle of the pacific ocean and as it floats there realize that the ocean represents… maybe, what we’ve been able to measure of the universe.

Imagine millions of other paper plates floating around representing millions of other galaxies. Throw in super massive black holes, dark matter (there’s a REAL zinger there) and the rest of the astronomical phenomena that have us staring cross eyed into our equipment. And all this barely scratches the surface.

There is a God who spoke this into existence FROM NOTHING by the command of his mouth… whatever that means. That God, whose mind numbing unfathomable holy power and majesty would consume you (or me) in a nanosecond if He were approached apart from the death defeating resurrected Christ, has chosen to reveal himself to the only part of all of that creation that exists in his intelligent moral image… in a book.

You just keep right on sinfully attempting to fit him into your puny pathetic little mind (mine too) and you will keep right on coming to sinful idolatrous conclusions. You have ZEEROH understanding of even what little of Him can be understood at all by His chosen revelation and yet you continue to proclaim your ability to understand Him fully.

I repeat. Repent of this blasphemy and believe the Gospel.

Yes, temporally we appear pretty insignificant which makes the gospel of Christ all the more glorious.[/quote]

[quote]Legionary wrote:
Presuming the characteristics of such a God is beyond human knowledge. Arrogant in that of all the Universe which is incomprehensible in its scale that some people believe with no reservations that God took a special interest and an active role in uplifting…(insert nation/religion) True, I logically have to keep that possibility open but everything we can observe on this Earth and in the Universe around us leads me to the opposite conclusion, which by no means is concrete. [/quote]You have a lot of reading to do. Trust me. These threads address your skepticism.

Some more old stuff:

[quote]Severiano wrote:<<< We are the ones who utilize reason and knowledge. >>>[/quote]You DO utilize reason and knowledge. EV REE BUDDY does. Couldn’t avoid them if you wanted to. Created in the image of the super logical God. That’s the point. [quote]Severiano wrote:<<< From an A priori standpoint there is no evidence for a God, AT ALL. >>>[/quote]From an A priori standpoint there is no particle of knowledge in all of existence, and ESPECIALLY man as created in His image, that IS NOT a clear and inescapable PROCLAMATION of not just any God, but my triune God of the bible. Trust me. You have not thought this through. The problem is not a lack of evidence. The problem is man’s blindness in sin. [quote]Severiano wrote:<<< though unless you want to take a position against the Catholic Philosopher Alvin Plantinga (who I am an avid fan of) >>>[/quote]My position is against every philosopher you ever heard of my friend. Couldn’t be otherwise. Laugh if you must. I’m used to it. [quote]Severiano wrote:<<< I’ll check out your thread, I have avoided it on purpose for a while. But if you say I should look at it, I will. [/quote]You should. It will take an investment of time though because, nuthin personal, but I am not typing all that over again. Take some time seriously. You might be surprised at how stimulating some of those exchanges are. I’m not saying that just because I’m in the middle of them. There are numerous far older threads and a couple thousand years of church history wherein this discussion has taken place. [quote]Severiano wrote:<<< To me this makes absolutely no sense at all. You claim to be a metaphysics man, but then you follow none of the rules or that even Plantinga follows, who is THE Philosophical mental giant as far as Catholicism goes. If you don’t agree with him, we are playing on different ball fields. Completely different. To me, it looks like you are making excuses to hold your position, but I could be wrong. I’m saying it just does not follow (in my mind). [/quote]My dear friend? You n I are gonna get along. =] This is brilliant and ABSOLUTELY right on. We are on COMPLETELY different ball fields. AND, the EXACT same one at the EXACT same time. Yes, not only does that make total sense, but it is the ONLY thing that does. Man has throughout his history, by virtue of the remaining though sinfully broken image of God, been so absolutely RIGHT about so very much of what he’s observed and published. While, due to this brokenness in sin, being so ABSOLUTELY wrong about how and why he’s right about it. This has led him to utterly corrupt and perverse conclusions even from the things he’s right about. I pray you will do some reading. It’s all there.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
“There is a God who spoke this into existence FROM NOTHING by the command of his mouth… whatever that means. That God, whose mind numbing unfathomable holy power and majesty would consume you (or me) in a nanosecond if He were approached apart from the death defeating resurrected Christ, has chosen to reveal himself to the only part of all of that creation that exists in his intelligent moral image… in a book.”

In a book? Which one? Unfathomable? Yet you claim CHRISTIANITY has the answer.

“You just keep right on sinfully attempting to fit him into your puny pathetic little mind (mine too) and you will keep right on coming to sinful idolatrous conclusions. You have ZEEROH understanding of even what little of Him can be understood at all by His chosen revelation and yet you continue to proclaim your ability to understand Him fully.”

So fabricated holy books written by man somehow skirt around this?

“I repeat. Repent of this blasphemy and believe the Gospel.”

I’d sooner believe the Earth was flat, that spitting on wounds cured them, and that God was pleased by the scent of burning animal sacrifices. Wait, that’s the bronze age superstitions of the Old Testament.

Yes, temporally we appear pretty insignificant which makes the gospel of Christ all the more glorious.[/quote]

Never mind the other self reflective intelligent life forms in the Universe. I guess a supposedly benevolent God is going to condemn them to eternal torture because his revelation was only for humans, and of them, a very select few. I never claimed to know God as revealed religions so arrogantly proclaim. He? The use of anthropomorphic labels is a little insulting to refer to the Creator of the Universe don’t you think? Why is this “chosen revelation” so illogical, inherently flawed and downright amoral at times being the supposed word of God? “Cause it says it right there in the Bible and anything else is the work of Satan!” Can you provide a rational answer that doesn’t beg the question? I didn’t think so.

Another old one:[quote]Animal life not subject to the Adamic covenant as a moral agent is possible. The whole creation fell in Adam and groans awaiting the redemption of the sons of men (Romans 8:18ff). There cannot however be moral agents bearing the image of Go
d but not descended from Adam or else God has cursed intelligent moral life by sheer caprice. A thing unthinkable of the
just and holy God who reveals Himself in the bible.

If there are intelligent moral agents not descended from Adam and not under his curse on other planets then the “creation itself” would NOT need to “be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” (8:21 NASB) Not all of it anyway and not the highest part. Bottom line? Animals maybe (and even that’s doubtful biblically speaking), but there CANNOT be intelligent morally accountable life anywhere in this creation except dear old earth.

Also If there IS life anywhere but here? WE will have to find IT. IT will never come to US. So ET was cute and close encounters a cool flick but if we are to take our scriptures seriously they are literally just movies.[/quote]Read the threads. That’s where the REAL battle is.

EDIT: Here’s a pdf with a bunch of my posts I put together at the request of the leadership of my church. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com/dox/Brother_Greg_refromed_apologetic.pdf That will condense it down some. Without begging the question he says LOL!! Don’t read 3 sentences and assume. Please? If you come back and tell me you’ve read it we’ll talk some more. DBCooper is next and I’m dealing with a monumental family situation today and tomorrow. Not to mention trying to prepare for a discussion o Romans 2 and all of my real life responsibilities which at the moment are immense to say the very least. Not a lot of time except copying and pasting like this.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

The only prayer God will ever hear from ANYONE not currently raised from death to life in the blood and resurrection of His Son is “Lord Jesus I surrender everything I am and everything I have to you as master of my life. Save me from my sin and make me like you”. Jesus did not come to this earth to be a general help to people or nations with their problems. He came to save His people from the eternal judgement of an offended just and righteous God.
The United States has degenerated into an affront and a reproach to His holy name. Because the church in this country has degenerated into an affront and a reproach to His holy name. Despite His most abundant gracious blessing. Only His patient and merciful lovingkindness allows us to see one more sunrise. Once again. You have the wrong jesus and the wrong god sir. He is not a bleeding heart cosmic vending machine.[/quote]

LOL You are a comical guy Tirib. True to form, you absolutely MUST tell everyone their belief/opinion/and experience of God is ‘wrong’ and you are ‘right’. It’s a deeply engrained habit. Look, we are all here to work out our own salvation. Has it ever occurred to you…even for 2 nano-seconds…that God may deal with some people differently than He is dealing with you?

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:<<< Has it ever occurred to you…even for 2 nano-seconds…that God may deal with some people differently than He is dealing with you? [/quote]Only if His Word were a lie which is not possible. There is nothing weird about my beliefs. Only seems that way because of how far the church has fallen. As I’ve said a hundred times. I would have been a boring mainstream Christian in this country all the way up through the 19th century. You’re a new age cultist. I recognized your unity school influence from day one. Remember? Forsake that demonic false christ you worship, beg forgiveness of the one who is seated at the right hand of the Father and live.

Please tell us you don’t own any firearms.

http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/NT43JHN18.htm <— this is where i got the scriptures from.

john 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

john 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

â??Early Christianity was little understood and was regarded with little favor by those who ruled the pagan world. . . . Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. . . . They would not hold political office.â??â??On the Road to Civilization, A World History (Philadelphia, 1937), A. Heckel and J. Sigman, pp. 237, 238.

â??The Christians stood aloof and distinct from the state, as a priestly and spiritual race, and Christianity seemed able to influence civil life only in that manner which, it must be confessed, is the purest, by practically endeavouring to instil more and more of holy feeling into the citizens of the state.â??â??The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander, translated from German by H. J. Rose, p. 168.

Jesus and his early disciples did not get involved in politics.

Jer 10:23 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Matt 6:9-10 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Ill keep praying for his kingdom to come.

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
By the way, why is anyone lecturing Christian conservatives about charity? Sure we could always do more, but we are aware who tends to be more charitable in both time and money, right? Oh, right, we were pretending that entitlements heading for bankruptcy (imagine the poverty when that happens) was charitable giving.[/quote]

Look, what I’m getting at is pretty simple. And before anyone accuses me of preaching from up high, I’m a pretty hardcore fiscal conservative for the most part, and I am also a “believer” in that I believe in God and the teachings of Jesus Christ as laid out in the Bible. I don’t claim to be free of hypocrisy, nor do I claim to be an expert on the meanings of Jesus’ sermons.

That being said, I don’t think it’s wholly inaccurate or outlandish to say that there is some real, tangible, inherent hypocrisy in those who support fiscal conservatism on the one hand and Jesus on the other. Whether or not “entitlements” are headed for bankruptcy and whether or not they are viewed as entitlements and not the very fortunate donation that they actually are is immaterial, according to my understanding of Jesus’ teachings. What IS material is whether or not those programs are helping the poor and in what ways they can be tailored to improve on this, NOT in which ways they can be tailored to prevent the bankrupting of the rest of the country. I think Jesus would argue that if it takes bankrupting the country to feed and clothe the poor, regardless of how grateful they are, then we should do it if we claim to believe in His word.

I won’t argue about conservatives and charity in a general sense though. I can’t remember who the guy was now, but several years ago I read a large study by a writer from the NY Times that basically showed that conservatives actually donate to charities at a higher rate, both overall and relative to their net worth, than liberals do. HOWEVER, Jesus also said that we should not donate to the Church, but rather to the poor. The same study showed that an overwhelming majority of conservatives donations are to their churches, and not to the poor. Liberals tend to donate to museums and theaters and that sort of thing at about the same rate.[/quote]

One small thing that you should have learned in CCD is that it’s not your understanding. Your understanding is not a valid option. Truth is truth. But, I’m sure they did teach that in CCD. Or, they could have failed. I don’t know, and it is not hugely important.

However, though you are correct that entitlement programs can go both ways, neither does the Church say how charitable giving is supposed to go. That is why Dolan recently gave praise to the attempt at Universal Healthcare of all that junk coming out of the WH, but said that it couldn’t be accepted at this time because of the moral issues with the bill/policy/&c. that came with it. He also pointed out that UH whether it be through private or public means is up for debate. Either one is viable, but implementation is a matter of practicality.

I personally hope for UH soon, but whether America can do that through private means or through public I lean towards public at the moment with regulation of the medical field. Though, a better was would to be de-regulate and allow for UH on a more private level.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
By the way, why is anyone lecturing Christian conservatives about charity? Sure we could always do more, but we are aware who tends to be more charitable in both time and money, right? Oh, right, we were pretending that entitlements heading for bankruptcy (imagine the poverty when that happens) was charitable giving.[/quote]

Look, what I’m getting at is pretty simple. And before anyone accuses me of preaching from up high, I’m a pretty hardcore fiscal conservative for the most part, and I am also a “believer” in that I believe in God and the teachings of Jesus Christ as laid out in the Bible. I don’t claim to be free of hypocrisy, nor do I claim to be an expert on the meanings of Jesus’ sermons.

That being said, I don’t think it’s wholly inaccurate or outlandish to say that there is some real, tangible, inherent hypocrisy in those who support fiscal conservatism on the one hand and Jesus on the other. Whether or not “entitlements” are headed for bankruptcy and whether or not they are viewed as entitlements and not the very fortunate donation that they actually are is immaterial, according to my understanding of Jesus’ teachings. What IS material is whether or not those programs are helping the poor and in what ways they can be tailored to improve on this, NOT in which ways they can be tailored to prevent the bankrupting of the rest of the country. I think Jesus would argue that if it takes bankrupting the country to feed and clothe the poor, regardless of how grateful they are, then we should do it if we claim to believe in His word.

I won’t argue about conservatives and charity in a general sense though. I can’t remember who the guy was now, but several years ago I read a large study by a writer from the NY Times that basically showed that conservatives actually donate to charities at a higher rate, both overall and relative to their net worth, than liberals do. HOWEVER, Jesus also said that we should not donate to the Church, but rather to the poor. The same study showed that an overwhelming majority of conservatives donations are to their churches, and not to the poor. Liberals tend to donate to museums and theaters and that sort of thing at about the same rate.[/quote]

One small thing that you should have learned in CCD is that it’s not your understanding. Your understanding is not a valid option. Truth is truth. But, I’m sure they did teach that in CCD. Or, they could have failed. I don’t know, and it is not hugely important.

However, though you are correct that entitlement programs can go both ways, neither does the Church say how charitable giving is supposed to go. That is why Dolan recently gave praise to the attempt at Universal Healthcare of all that junk coming out of the WH, but said that it couldn’t be accepted at this time because of the moral issues with the bill/policy/&c. that came with it. He also pointed out that UH whether it be through private or public means is up for debate. Either one is viable, but implementation is a matter of practicality.

I personally hope for UH soon, but whether America can do that through private means or through public I lean towards public at the moment with regulation of the medical field. Though, a better was would to be de-regulate and allow for UH on a more private level.[/quote]

Thou shalt not steal

and

thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Seems to me Jehova is a tad less practical than you are.

[quote]orion wrote:
Does it look like his disciples thought in any way, shape or form that a rich man had less of a chance to get to heaven?

No, they despair, because if not even a rich man can do it, how could they?

This makes sense in the light of a Jewish tradition were sacrifices were semi mandatory, which costs money, were you could not work on sabbath, which means you make no money, and so further and so on. [/quote]

Weathly people can’t get into heaven because they are dead and thus are no longer wealthy - they enter heaven like anyone else.

That Jesus loved him some word games.

[quote]Vonamberg wrote:<<< A clearly Watchtower induced post >>>[/quote]We have us another JW in the house boys and girls.

This is Tiribulus’ “treatisie” on American Politics and the present troubles that we face.
“Gay marriage”
"It is the latest component in a national suicide that began in earnest in the 1960’s. It HAS AND IS
having an appreciable effect. A devastating suicidal one. This country was built on the
social/political/economic foundation of very limited public government through privately and
voluntarily practiced Judeo-Christian morality.

Oh yes it was. Our founders clearly told us that. “The reason we can give you so few rules boys n girls
is because you’re already so well behaved on the whole” to paraphrase in a nutshell. Even the total
hypocritical pagans like Jefferson and Franklin clearly understood this.
The soil out of which new citizens grow is their family or lack thereof. Every single last issue killing
this country is a direct consequence of that. The founders assumed that we would continue in the new
testament model of one man and one woman for life wherein boundaries that engender self sacrifice,
self control, decency, modesty and HONESTY in the act of upholding one’s vows because one’s word
actually meant something.

All of this was predicated upon the assumption that God designed it that
way. That was the soil for new citizens they absolutely counted on for their experiment in self
government to succeed and it did.
We skyrocketed into the most prosperous, powerful, feared and respected nation in all of human history
over the course of a few generations BECAUSE despite our human foibles we were the most moral
because we were the most Christian. Look at the soil our citizens are growing in now. Children of the
hippies. Hedonistic, self obsessed, narcissistic, materialistic whoremongers whose mission in life is
bringing themselves the most pleasure in the most rapid fashion possible.

ALL the economic woes we are now in ARE, make no mistake, the consequence of the sexually moral
degeneration of this nation’s citizenry resulting in the destruction of the foundational social unit upon
which she was built and out of which her members are spawned. Even Stalin understood this. He told
the world that the United Sates would never be defeated as long as she maintained her spirituality and
hence MORality."

Wow thanks for illuminating that for us Trib. Have you ran this by any historians or economists? You know, those who have an actual education and understanding on such matters? Those were my thoughts exactly Sweet. People like this vote, run for and hold public office, not to mention raise (indoctrinate) children in this skewed, hateful world viewpoint as well. Its rather disconcerting to think about is it not?

So yeah, a poster drops red meat, makes two posts total (including the OP, with the second immediately following), and vanishes. Manure stirring?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So yeah, a poster drops RED meat, makes two posts total (including the OP, with the second immediately following), and vanishes. Manure stirring?[/quote]

Fixed.
But yes, OP was definitely looking for entertainment with this opening line:

There are a lot of bonkers, looney toon, Christian conservatives on this board and I would love to hear how you reconcile your weird political beliefs with your weird religious beliefs in light of this article:

LOL - lots of guys fell for it like sharks on chum