T Nation

Armour Thyroid Dosage?

Can anybody give me an example of how much your Thyroid levels started at and what they went up to on certain dose. I am going to start Thyroid treatment through a HRT clinic and I want to make sure its not overkill.

T3 total = 78 ref 76-181
T4 TOTAL = 6.0 REF 4.5-12.5
T4 FREE 1.2 REF 0.8-1.8
T3 FREE 299 REF 230-420
THANKS FOR ANY INPUT.

check out stopthethyroidmadness for a great site on Thyroid issues.

before you start you should also get your Reverse T3, Cortisol, and ferritin checked out. If your RT3 is high then there is no point in starting in on Armour which would just add more fuel to the fire. Low Cortisol and low ferritin may contribute to high RT3.

Here is what I cut from some other site (at some point in the past).

You have problems IF

Total T4 < 8.0 ug/dL
Total T3 < 100 ng/dL (this varies)
Free T3 < 340 pg/dL
Free T4 < 1.2 ng/dL
TSH > 2.0 uIU/mL
Reverse T3 should equal 1/3 Free T3. Any higher and you have interference. If RT3 = Free T3, then your system acts as though it has virtually no free T3.

REVERSE T3 = 25 REF = 11-32
I DO SUPPLEMENT MY ADRENALS

so your RT3 = 25

take 25 * 10 = 250 RT3 vs 299 Free T3

Your RT3 is canceling out 85% of your free T3. That is a major problem.

ideal RT3 would be 10 or less.

If you supplement extra T4 via Armour then you will drive your RT3 values even higher.

You need to either fix your cortisol levels (to decrease conversion of T4 to RT3), your ferritin levels, or try out T3-only medications.

have you checked out the Reverse T3 information section on the STTM site?

Thanks for laying that out for me. I have just started to try and understand the thyroid part of this whole process. I will be presenting this to the Dr. This would probably explain my constant fatigue issues.

Doc may resist, but sell that you are asking for a trial to see if that addresses your symptoms. Some docs are by-the-book-you-are-normal. If push back, explain that it cannot do any harm and if you feel no benefit the trial is over.

Id be careful and address the adrenal issue and find someone who is well schooled in the thyroid thing before you do too much…I dont have my labs handy but I had different docs prescribe just T3, or Armor…and at very high dosages since I felt nothing at the typical doses…I was up to 8 grains thyroid a day and didnt feel a thing, and I think if I were to have done some digging it would have been related to my adrenal/cortisol issues…

I weaned back down to 1 grain Armor thyroid because I didnt feel a difference between 1 grain or 8 grains at all, and may just get off completely and see how I do…Im also on 10mg cortisol AM, 5mg afternoon…

I was more consumed with finding my sweet spot of T and some other issues, but maybe at some point will revist optimizing thyroid…but I think I need to do some more digging because being on 8grains and feeling nada is probably a big red flag of something I wasnt aware of at time…

Once adrenals issues are address then armour thyroid can be given few weeks afterwards. Rt3:ft3 conversion shouls be >12 as well as symptoms would indicate. Free t3 of 2.9 is low but one may just need to add t-3 5 mcgs BID and to hold where you are currently at and not use armour. STTM book has so good basic information in it but some of it extreme, but some need to take what they read with a grain of salt. I have been on talk radio when janine was on and I confronted her with alot of information. From being hypoadrenal and low thyroid, low T levels from personal experience and having over 5 years of clincal practice out in the field I know all the loop holes. I can not reiterate that things need to be done in stages and may take any where from 6 month to 2 years to recover. People need to understand that their issues did not happen over night and they will not get corrected over night either. Their quality of life will improve gradually over time as the imbalances are slowly corrected. It takes 6 months to a year to heal at the cellular tissue.

[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
…I was up to 8 grains thyroid a day and didnt feel a thing, …[/quote]

more than likely it was all converting to RT3 which was completely canceling out your free T3.

[quote]PureChance wrote:

[quote]bluecollarjock wrote:
…I was up to 8 grains thyroid a day and didnt feel a thing, …[/quote]

more than likely it was all converting to RT3 which was completely canceling out your free T3.[/quote]

Perhaps this is a simple diagnostic observation. Not knowing these things… is 8 grains a large dose?

Yes from what I know its an insane large dose…we started at 2 grains, and went up 1grain at a time over a long period to see if I would feel anything, and I never did…doc said that other peolpe typically feel a sweet spot that they have lots of renewed energy, clear mind, extra bounce in their step, and when they went just over that sweet spot people start having anxiety, high heart rate, feeling like dog crap…I never felt the good feelings, and I never had bad feelings from it either or any anxiety…

So Pure Chance can you dumb down the practical side of what I might have been doing and what a potential correction for that is? Im at 1 grain now and was going to get off it totally soon to see how I felt…and maybe after Christmas get some labs again to see where it is when I get my T stuff checked again as we do so periodically

for I had high RT3 on Armour - for me stopping my armour helped, getting on Cortisol helped, and supplementing iron helped (but I am waiting for my next blood test to see what my next steps are).

you need to get a complete blood test for thyroid to tell you exactly what is happening. All else is just simple guessing.

Total T4 & T3
Free T4 & T3
Reverse T3
antibodies (if not checked before)
AM Cortisol
Ferritin

with those results you can see what’s happening with your system and treat it.

stopthethyroidmadness site has some really great information about thyroid, RT3, and adrenal issues. I strongly recommend that you check it out.

First let me say this if you don’t fix why your RT3 is high doing T3 only meds will get it down but when you stop it it will just come back up again. I have higher RT3 from having heart bypass surgery it comes down a little every blood test I do labs every 6 to 8 weeks. Men need to understand taking T3 only can drive up your SHBG and as this goes up it binds up your Testosterone levels and your Free T falls.
Phil

I have old labs for thyroid ill try to dig up to see what they were before i started thyroid and cortisol…and i have been to that site, it is very informative

[quote]pmgamer18 wrote:
First let me say this if you don’t fix why your RT3 is high doing T3 only meds will get it down but when you stop it it will just come back up again. I have higher RT3 from having heart bypass surgery it comes down a little every blood test I do labs every 6 to 8 weeks. Men need to understand taking T3 only can drive up your SHBG and as this goes up it binds up your Testosterone levels and your Free T falls.
Phil[/quote]

Basically, for those with rT3 problems taking thyroid meds, T4 meds can make things worse and T4+T3 meds may be slightly less worse.

If you are saying that the sum of T3+rT3 increases SHBG, then the following might make sense.

Interesting implications for guys with steady TRT T levels maintaining near E2=22pg/ml who have high end TT; and FT levels fall over the years. Your points imply that this might partly be from increasing T3+rT3 levels increasing SHBG over the years [lowering FT]. If these guys are not taking any T4 meds and otherwise have [apparently] optimal fT4/fT3 levels, they do not have a option of reducing T4 levels as they are not medicating. What role could T3 meds have for such “normal thyroid” guys who have non optimal rT3 and how would TSH and T4 respond? [yes I asked about this in another thread]

We do know that SHBG increases with age, and we know that E2 often increases with age as well. This increase might be partly a result of increasing E and increasing T3+rT3 effects. If so, then rT3 issues may be a significant TRT success factor for some.

There are rare instance of thyroid resistance which have been seen in our clincal practice and more thyroid may help alleviate the symptoms. In these instance one needs to look at the factors that are affecting thyroid binding at the receptor (some mentioned above) The only clincal way to measure thyroid performace is BMR testing which was the orignal form of testing back in the 1960 where they kept you over night and phyiscal measured you with an instrument. Currently our facility is looking into a version of this to help track our thyroid patients by measuring there BMR with a simiilar device. This will be a huge step in getting more accurate measurements of how the body is responding to thyroid medications. Thyroid is one of the easiest to measure in the blood but rarely do blood results line up with patients clincal symptoms that is why it is the most challenging part of the endocrine system to balance.

So Hardasnails would you agree that most of My FT3 is being canceled out by my RT3 and if so supplementing with a FT3 only med could help relieve my constant fatigue issues. If it could help then I would like to give it a shot. TRT used to be enough, but the last 9 months something else has been out of sink. No one should have to rely on stimulants to get going everyday or to just keep from falling asleep at work.

if you have a blood test that shows high RT3 and low Cortisol (less then 10-15), then Cortisol replacement might help.

I am trying that now myself (well that plus stopping Armour 2 months ago)

but without tests confirming a problem, I would be hesitant to start on cortisol.

if you have low ferritin, that could be having an impact on your Thyroid as well.

Blood tests show high RT3. On Cortef 5mg morning and 5mg afternoon for 5wks. Tests showed my adrenals were basically shot. I have really high ferritin levels. High enough I would like to donate blood on a monthly basis if I could.

You’ve gotten alot of good input on this thread. KEY POINT keep learning as much as you can about this and don’t give up. We have to be our own advocates and a lot of the medical community is completely uneducated on proper thyroid treatment.

I cannot speak AT ALL to what thyroid meds do to testosterone. One thing I haven’t had to deal with. SOmething I HAVE had to deal with is a major REVERSE T3 problem. I am finally treated by Dr. Chris Camilleri @ Holtorf Medical Group in Foster City (There is one in SoCal in Torrance Also). Holtorf protocol is absolutely NO incoming T4 of any kind for RT3 problems. My doc instantly cut off all incoming T4. He then began treating me with increasing doses of compounded slow release T3. I started at 65mcg (thats right 65) and am now up to 125mcg SR T3 per day. My last blood work (fifth round of testing since April) finally shows my RT3 down below 5 which is where my doctor wants it. My FreeT3 level is over half… our intention is to get it into the top 2/3-3/4 of the lab range. Anyways, that’s the Holtorf protocol: NO T4 and increasing doses of compounded slow release T3. For someone that is a know RT3 over-producer T4 will only become RT3.