T Nation

Armenia Genocide Bill

A proposed House resolution that would label as “genocide” the deaths of Armenians more than 90 years ago during the Ottoman Empire has won the support of a majority of House members, unleashing a lobbying blitz by the Bush administration and other opponents who say it would greatly harm relations with Turkey, a key ally in the Iraq war.

All eight living former secretaries of state have signed a joint letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) warning that the nonbinding resolution “would endanger our national security interests.” Three former defense secretaries, in their own letter, said Turkey probably would cut off U.S. access to a critical air base. The government of Turkey is spending more than $300,000 a month on communications specialists and high-powered lobbyists, including former congressman Bob Livingston, to defeat the initiative.

House Resolution 106, officially the Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide, has been pushed doggedly by a congressman whose Southern California district contains the largest concentration of Armenian Americans in the country. Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D) won his seat in 2000 after his Republican predecessor was sandbagged when then-House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert reneged on a pledge and pulled the bill from the floor after a last-minute plea from President Bill Clinton.

Schiff, who defeated Rep. James Rogan after Hastert killed the floor vote, said the deaths so long ago still resonate with Armenians. “It is an insight you get when you have lots of Armenian constituents,” he said, saying it reminded him of conversations he had while growing up Jewish. “But imagine losing the entire family and having the successor state say it never happened.”

Few people deny that massacres killed hundreds of thousands of Armenian men, women and children during and immediately after World War I.

But Turkish officials and some historians say that the deaths resulted from forced relocations and widespread fighting when the 600-year-old Ottoman Empire collapsed, not from a campaign of genocide – and that hundreds of thousands of Turks also died in the same region during that time

These fuckers have too much time on their hands.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
These fuckers have too much time on their hands.[/quote]

And seeing how they gave away good money to Bush to invade Iraq, I’ll say they have too much money as well.

Rice’s opposition to the bill is a total outrage.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/10/AR2007101001280.html?hpid=topnews

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
These fuckers have too much time on their hands.

And seeing how they gave away good money to Bush to invade Iraq, I’ll say they have too much money as well.

Rice’s opposition to the bill is a total outrage.[/quote]

The fact that our congress wastes time and money on this is an outrage. This is well documented and taught in schools. We do not need congress to waste it’s time with non-binding resolutions.

Do something meaningful.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
These fuckers have too much time on their hands.

And seeing how they gave away good money to Bush to invade Iraq, I’ll say they have too much money as well.

Rice’s opposition to the bill is a total outrage.[/quote]

The existance of the bill is an out rage. Who gives a fuck really? This is shit for historians and scholars to discuss not asshole politicians. Hell, I have spent to much time on it already.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
These fuckers have too much time on their hands.

And seeing how they gave away good money to Bush to invade Iraq, I’ll say they have too much money as well.

Rice’s opposition to the bill is a total outrage.

The existance of the bill is an out rage. Who gives a fuck really? This is shit for historians and scholars to discuss not asshole politicians. Hell, I have spent to much time on it already.[/quote]

Try not to be American about it.

Who cares?

I dunno, who spents 300000 a month on it?

The Turks?

Are there Kurds in Turky?

According to the Turks, no.

Are there Alewites in Turky?

According to the Turks, no.

So far, we have covered around 35-40% of their population.

They have a political culture deeply rooted in denial, much like yours, better learn their favorite way of denial, they are allready bombing sites in Northern Iraq/Kurdistan , and yes, those non-existent Kurds are allmost your only allies in Iraq.

Maybe you should care?

On the one hand, meaningless shit like this, the moveon condemnation, etc. piss me off and I feel like they should be docked pay for wasting time on bullshit declarations. On the other hand, it does keep them from fucking up other things. If only they could knock this shit off and instead spend the time reading bills before they vote on them… nah, I’m asking too much.

You’d rather they actually be passing something? Giving the executive even more power beyond what is constitutional perhaps?

Democracy is slow and circular for a reason.

[quote]orion wrote:

They have a political culture deeply rooted in denial, much like yours…

Maybe you should care?[/quote]

This comes from an individual who does not lament that fact that his Homeland did not, in 60 years, prosecute war criminals; yes, Austrian men of his father’s generation who volunteered to shoot innocents, including 1.5 million in Ukraine’s forests.
He throws barbs too freely, this Orion, who might want to consider the participation of Kurt Waldheim–elected Austrian President twice, if I remember correctly–in the genocide in Yugoslavia.
And perhaps we on this forum would respect an opinion from him in this matter, but he would prefer to support the rights of terrorists to target innocent noncombatants.

The Congress engages in political theater from time to time. The Armenian Genocide happened. But we recognize the difference between theater and history.

Orion, and some others, have amply shown themselves to be devoid of moral authority, in this and in many other matters. Ignore him. I will.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:

They have a political culture deeply rooted in denial, much like yours…

Maybe you should care?

This comes from an individual who does not lament that fact that his Homeland did not, in 60 years, prosecute war criminals; yes, Austrian men of his father’s generation who volunteered to shoot innocents, including 1.5 million in Ukraine’s forests.
He throws barbs too freely, this Orion, who might want to consider the participation of Kurt Waldheim–elected Austrian President twice, if I remember correctly–in the genocide in Yugoslavia.
And perhaps we on this forum would respect an opinion from him in this matter, but he would prefer to support the rights of terrorists to target innocent noncombatants.

The Congress engages in political theater from time to time. The Armenian Genocide happened. But we recognize the difference between theater and history.

Orion, and some others, have amply shown themselves to be devoid of moral authority, in this and in many other matters. Ignore him. I will.

[/quote]

At least Orion has his facts straight.

Like Kurt Waldheim being elected once, not twice, his role consisting of being on the staff of his General, while the genocide was carried out by the SS.

According to Simon Wiesental and a committee of Austrian historians he took never part in war crimes and even his membership in the SA probably happened without his knowledge.

If you google “kriegsverbrecherprozesse österreich” you get 15500 hits, mostly historic literature about the trials of war criminals that, according to you, never happened.

Orion also never supported the terrorists rights to kill civilians to achieve their goals, he questioned the US right do the same and he posted so expressis verbis, which is ironically why he is accused of moral relativism.

Now, DrSkeptix,

do you see how easy it is to respond to attacks on your country if you actually have the facts on your side?

No fake moral outrage, no accusations of anti-Austrianism, jealousy or any other BS.

See also here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1743402

And here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1744460

[quote]orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:

They have a political culture deeply rooted in denial, much like yours…

Maybe you should care?

This comes from an individual who does not lament that fact that his Homeland did not, in 60 years, prosecute war criminals; yes, Austrian men of his father’s generation who volunteered to shoot innocents, including 1.5 million in Ukraine’s forests.
He throws barbs too freely, this Orion, who might want to consider the participation of Kurt Waldheim–elected Austrian President twice, if I remember correctly–in the genocide in Yugoslavia.
And perhaps we on this forum would respect an opinion from him in this matter, but he would prefer to support the rights of terrorists to target innocent noncombatants.

The Congress engages in political theater from time to time. The Armenian Genocide happened. But we recognize the difference between theater and history.

Orion, and some others, have amply shown themselves to be devoid of moral authority, in this and in many other matters. Ignore him. I will.

At least Orion has his facts straight.

Like Kurt Waldheim being elected once, not twice, his role consisting of being on the staff of his General, while the genocide was carried out by the SS.

According to Simon Wiesental and a committee of Austrian historians he took never part in war crimes and even his membership in the SA probably happened without his knowledge.

If you google “kriegsverbrecherprozesse österreich” you get 15500 hits, mostly historic literature about the trials of war criminals that, according to you, never happened.

Orion also never supported the terrorists rights to kill civilians to achieve their goals, he questioned the US right do the same and he posted so expressis verbis, which is ironically why he is accused of moral relativism.

Now, DrSkeptix,

do you see how easy it is to respond to attacks on your country if you actually have the facts on your side?

No fake moral outrage, no accusations of anti-Austrianism, jealousy or any other BS.

See also here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1743402

And here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1744460

[/quote]

Actually, nobody really knows what his role was. Some awfully skeptical things “happened” around this guy.

“[edit] Ostrovsky claims
In 1994 the supposed former Mossad officer Victor Ostrovsky claimed in his book The Other Side of Deception that Mossad doctored the file of the then UN Secretary General to implicate him in Nazi crimes. These false documents were subsequently “discovered” by Benjamin Netanyahu in the UN file, and triggered the “Waldheim Affair”. Ostrovsky says the reason was Waldheim’s criticism of Israeli action in Lebanon [20]. Debate surrounds Ostrovsky and his writings but they have not as yet been shown to be false, nor have they been shown to be true.”

[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:

They have a political culture deeply rooted in denial, much like yours…

Maybe you should care?

This comes from an individual who does not lament that fact that his Homeland did not, in 60 years, prosecute war criminals; yes, Austrian men of his father’s generation who volunteered to shoot innocents, including 1.5 million in Ukraine’s forests.
He throws barbs too freely, this Orion, who might want to consider the participation of Kurt Waldheim–elected Austrian President twice, if I remember correctly–in the genocide in Yugoslavia.
And perhaps we on this forum would respect an opinion from him in this matter, but he would prefer to support the rights of terrorists to target innocent noncombatants.

The Congress engages in political theater from time to time. The Armenian Genocide happened. But we recognize the difference between theater and history.

Orion, and some others, have amply shown themselves to be devoid of moral authority, in this and in many other matters. Ignore him. I will.

At least Orion has his facts straight.

Like Kurt Waldheim being elected once, not twice, his role consisting of being on the staff of his General, while the genocide was carried out by the SS.

According to Simon Wiesental and a committee of Austrian historians he took never part in war crimes and even his membership in the SA probably happened without his knowledge.

If you google “kriegsverbrecherprozesse österreich” you get 15500 hits, mostly historic literature about the trials of war criminals that, according to you, never happened.

Orion also never supported the terrorists rights to kill civilians to achieve their goals, he questioned the US right do the same and he posted so expressis verbis, which is ironically why he is accused of moral relativism.

Now, DrSkeptix,

do you see how easy it is to respond to attacks on your country if you actually have the facts on your side?

No fake moral outrage, no accusations of anti-Austrianism, jealousy or any other BS.

See also here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1743402

And here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1744460

Actually, nobody really knows what his role was. Some awfully skeptical things “happened” around this guy.

“[edit] Ostrovsky claims
In 1994 the supposed former Mossad officer Victor Ostrovsky claimed in his book The Other Side of Deception that Mossad doctored the file of the then UN Secretary General to implicate him in Nazi crimes. These false documents were subsequently “discovered” by Benjamin Netanyahu in the UN file, and triggered the “Waldheim Affair”. Ostrovsky says the reason was Waldheim’s criticism of Israeli action in Lebanon [20]. Debate surrounds Ostrovsky and his writings but they have not as yet been shown to be false, nor have they been shown to be true.”
[/quote]

If that is true, they might have planned it to use it against Chancellor Bruno Kreisky who , being Jewish, had excellent contacts to Sadat, Ghadafi and the PLO and was a strict opponent of Zionism.

Never happened until the SPOE dug this out and used it in the presidential election. Since the US and Europe pressured us to not vote for him we obviously had to elect the idiot.

Being half Armenian (father) & half Greek (mother) we got it on both sides from the Turks. My Grandparents both escaped from Armenia and Turkey by the skin of their teeth. My grandmother told the story of how her father was away on business in Egypt when he met some muslim friends from back in Turkey, who took him aside and told him that he had to get his family out because their town was ‘next’.

Right there in the middle of the night he was able to get word to his family, he told them take what you can carry and come to Egypt now! From there they went to France then to the US. My grandfather knew even less about the fate of his family, or I should say if he knew, he never talked about it. Neither of my grandparents liked to talk about those days. They did however love their lives in the United States and prospered.

Many years later my father found himself in a business deal with a Turkish man. He was asked by that man if he was Armenian. When he said yes he was the man asked where his family was from and when my father told him he got really quiet. Later my father told my grandmother about the encounter and questioned whether he should do business with the man.

My grandmother, in her wisdom, said that what happened in the past no matter how horrible, is past. We live in the new world and while we must not forget our past we must not allow it to hinder our future.

So while I can tell you as someone who has a ‘dog’ in this fight, that I am saddened by the lack of formal recognition the genocide has in the US, I, on the other hand, understand that it can’t hinder our future. I am also proud to say that the Armenians that made it to the US have for the most part prospered and contributed to the culture and success of our great country just like the many immigrants before them!

Was this in the list for the first 100 hours?

I forget.

It’s an interesting quandry. On the one hand, I think we can all agree that genocide is bad. The descendants of the victims would get some emotional good from having the fact of the genocide officially recognized.

On the other hand, Congress has many other issues on which it could act that have more direct benefits to its constituents. Turkey is a valuable ally in the Middle East, and passing what is essentially a meaningless resolution could antagonize them.

Net net, I think all of these latter-day apologies and condemnations of historical wrongs are not worth it. They’re generally undertaken to make the legislators feel good about themselves and distract people from the legislature’s general ineptitude. I remember writing a column in my college newspaper making fun of the student council for passing resolutions against child prostitution in Asian countries - as if they could do something about it, or as if they needed to distinguish themselves from some group of pro-child-prostitution students on campus. At least with the Congress, I suppose, the Congress can argue that the intended beneficiaries of the resolution would actually know about it - or at least their descendants would…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
It’s an interesting quandry. On the one hand, I think we can all agree that genocide is bad. The descendants of the victims would get some emotional good from having the fact of the genocide officially recognized.

On the other hand, Congress has many other issues on which it could act that have more direct benefits to its constituents. Turkey is a valuable ally in the Middle East, and passing what is essentially a meaningless resolution could antagonize them.

Net net, I think all of these latter-day apologies and condemnations of historical wrongs are not worth it. They’re generally undertaken to make the legislators feel good about themselves and distract people from the legislature’s general ineptitude. I remember writing a column in my college newspaper making fun of the student council for passing resolutions against child prostitution in Asian countries - as if they could do something about it, or as if they needed to distinguish themselves from some group of pro-child-prostitution students on campus. At least with the Congress, I suppose, the Congress can argue that the intended beneficiaries of the resolution would actually know about it - or at least their descendants would…[/quote]

This is a broader issue.

The Turkish government has a simple way of dealing with dissidents an annoying facts, it denies that they exist.

There was no genocide, there are no Kurds, there are no Alewites.

Now the question of the Kurd´s existence especially is bound to come up sooner or later, since the PKK will definitely use a defacto independent Kurdistan aka Northern Iraq.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

[/quote]

I’ll have to disagree with you here. The bill is nothing like the Asian-child-prostitution analogy you tried to drew. Turkey has been oppressing the Kurds with US weapons for much of the 90’s. Billions of dollars are given in aid to Ankara. I think passing the bill will affect future decisions in that regard.

[quote]lixy wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

I’ll have to disagree with you here. The bill is nothing like the Asian-child-prostitution analogy you tried to drew. Turkey has been oppressing the Kurds with US weapons for much of the 90’s. Billions of dollars are given in aid to Ankara. I think passing the bill will affect future decisions in that regard. [/quote]

I don’t see how passing a bill that recognizes something that happened around 1900 to a different ethnic group would affect, in 2007, the passage of future aid or weapons bills based on the problems of another ethnic group?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I don’t see how passing a bill that recognizes something that happened around 1900 to a different ethnic group would affect, in 2007, the passage of future aid or weapons bills based on the problems of another ethnic group?[/quote]

It’s symbolic, but it’s gotta be a good thing nonetheless.

The Turks seem to be taking it quite seriously.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7040366.stm

[quote]orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
orion wrote:

They have a political culture deeply rooted in denial, much like yours…

…if I remember correctly–

At least Orion has his facts straight.

Like Kurt Waldheim being elected once, not twice, his role consisting of being on the staff of his General, while the genocide was carried out by the SS.

According to Simon Wiesental and a committee of Austrian historians he took never part in war crimes and even his membership in the SA probably happened without his knowledge.

If you google “kriegsverbrecherprozesse österreich” you get 15500 hits, mostly historic literature about the trials of war criminals that, according to you, never happened.

Orion also never supported the terrorists rights to kill civilians to achieve their goals, he questioned the US right do the same and he posted so expressis verbis, which is ironically why he is accused of moral relativism.

Now, DrSkeptix,

do you see how easy it is to respond to attacks on your country if you actually have the facts on your side?

No fake moral outrage, no accusations of anti-Austrianism, jealousy or any other BS.

See also here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1743402

And here:

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1744460

Actually, nobody really knows what his role was. Some awfully skeptical things “happened” around this guy.

[i]"[edit] Ostrovsky claims

Never happened until the SPOE dug this out and used it in the presidential election. Since the US and Europe pressured us to not vote for him we obviously had to elect the idiot.

[/quote]

Not quite…

I said…“if I remember correctly.” My memory failed. Nope,that other paragon of virtue, the UN, re-elected him Secretary General, while rumors of Nazi complicity were hushed up. Austria merely voted for him once, when the queries were fully made public. This is not exactly a proud moment in Austria’s history.
“Participation in…” Being on the general staff does not exculpate him from the action in Yugoslavia. He directly supported it. We have all heard the answers, " No one knew!" and “He was only following orders!”

As for Austrian war criminal trials, it is not the few that were conducted, it is the many that were N OT conducted that is the object of my sad comment!
Yes, I could Google for hits the self-exculpatory websites, and perhaps there is a well-serviced website celebrating the Judenschlagfest as well.
Perhaps Orion will re-read Hitler’s Willing Executioners. An edition is available in German.

I am not Austria-bashing; why would anyone engage in such a pointless activity? I have liked Austria very much; it is one of the very quaint appendicized states of Europe that have exercised selective historical amnesia, out of convenience and political needs.

And Orion knows very well that I, and many others, and US policy, does not sanction the targeting of noncombatant civilians. He embraces it, and even celebrates it (and I do not feel inclined to post the many links which cast him beneath the level of contempt.)