T Nation

Aren't Healthy Oils Still Just Fat?

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Got it! And ultimately this is why people on Keto end up feeling miserable with this type of exercise, because the glycogen isn’t getting replenished? [/quote]

So basically now some fatty acids (even carbon number) end up undergoing beta oxidation to fuel most of our resting needs, and slowly replenish ATP from short bursts.

The odd chain fatty acids, and many of the amino acids, (particularly glutamine) can SLOWLY refuel glycogen by getting turned into glucose IN THE LIVER and then sent to the bloodstream. I think that several aminos can do this, but they get turned into glutamine first more or less.

And some of the amino acids turn into ketones. So 2 problems from sprinting on low glycogen: low blood sugar and ketones (which tend to reduce strength, and make blood acidic. This coupled with the fact that the glycogen you do have is making lactic acid can shut you down).

Again be mindful that a 10 second sprint is probably comparable to 3 times that long a period of performing a weight lifting set, like 30 seconds.

My estimate would be that between 1.5 to 6 seconds of maximal sprinting effort the body shifts into using glycogen because ATP is depleted. Its probably more like 5-25 seconds of performing weightlifting sets. In fact if you lift weights to the point where power decreases, or bar speed slows, it is a direct sign that ATP is starting to rely on glucose for replenishment. Again the Russians found generally max power could be maintained for 2-6 reps. If bar speed slows, if lactic acid is felt, you are past the maximal CP ATP power generation pathway which can be refueled by fat during short breaks.

OP one tbsp of oil is only 14 grams. 4 tbsp oil= ~56g fat

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

So fatty acids are broken down in mitochondria (which are contained largely in red muscle fibers) by beta oxidation into NADH and FADH2 (which make ATP) and acetyl-CoA which is the same thing that sugar ultimately gets turned into, to enter the Kreb’s cycle.

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so basically on this picture, http://www.ptdirect.com/images/personal-training-3-stages-of-aerobic-system/@@images/image/preview, the fats enter several steps in, right before step 2 begins.

Also,

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

Still low rep strength training gets ATP and CP rebuild from fatty acids.
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Does this mean fatty acid from your diet that are in your bloostream, or from adipose tissue? From what I’m reading I only find things referring to lipolysis of stored fats

Generally speaking, a rise in adrenaline, or a drop in insulin trigger fat to be removed from adipocytes, enter the bloodstream, turned into free fatty acids, and diffuse into the working muscle cells.

great, thanks! This thread ended up being a goldmine

[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:
I’m just confused about that part, because after I sprint I crave carbohydrates to the point that I can’t concentrate on anything until I get some. [/quote]

So you’re still a sugar-burner, metabolically speaking.

Transition to being a fat-burner – as mentioned, this is the body’s preferred state of affairs – by keeping carbs low and all of these sugar-burner symptoms will go away.

Granted, heavy lifting and sprinting will require carbs (to replace glycogen), but simply nowhere near the amount (and certainly not the frequency) that gets typically consumed.

so the take home message from all this; adequate protein, adequate carbs to keep glycogen where it should be, and fill the rest with helathy fats?

[quote]AccipiterQ wrote:
so the take home message from all this; adequate protein, adequate carbs to keep glycogen where it should be, and fill the rest with helathy fats? [/quote]

Here’s my summary.

On a basically non-intense lifestyle, the baseline maintenence diet should consist of
25% protein
25% carbs (half of that sugar, 1/3 of the sugar fructose at most).
50% fat, and getting all the essentials on a weekly basis, minimal omega-6 etc

This basic plan would make a non-active person as healthy as possible, with protein clearly above their needs (maybe 90 grams) but clearly below any possible negative effects (somewhere a little over 200 grams).

So for someone aroung 2400 cals baseline not intensely active that is:

2400 cals
150 grams protein (600 cals)
150 grams carbs, 75 of that being sugar, 25 being fructose (600 cals)
The remaining 1200 cals from a variety of fats (1200 cals)

I think that this would take even an inactive man down under 15% bodyfat.

This however, 50% fat diet is basically the highest fat percentage diet that someone should consume.

When cutting, the cals removed (300-800 per day) need to come from fat because the other 2 are already optimized and you are basically supplementing your cals from stored fat. What’s more, if you’ve been eating healthy fats, the stored fat released will tend to be healthier and will be released more easily because your body is not trying to lock it up away from your tissues.

So on a 700 cal/day cut, you are at 150 grams protein, 150 grams carbs, and 600 cals of fat or 33% of each one.

Training should be supplemented primarily with carbs. Maybe 300 cals per hour, mostly carbs plus 15-25 grams protein.

Growth should be supplemented primarily with carbs. About 300-600 cals a day, mostly carbs, plus 20-50 grams of protein.

So whether you are cutting, or growing or training, the percentage of fat will be less than the standard 50% because cutting comes from fat, but growth comes from primarily carb addition.

Mertdawg, what do you do for a living if you don’t mind me asking? I’m assuming it’s something in the nutrition or health field, you’ve gotta ton of knowledge! Thanks for all your contributions

I have a BS with a double major, biology and chemistry and an MS in sports medicine and an MA in education. I taught high school chem for several years, but my wife is a big shot MD so I have been “running the house” and 3 kids thing for the last 4 years. I’m 43. I may go back to teaching chem if I get a chance to do everything the way I want to somewhere.