T Nation

Are We Rome?

The points about internal decay strike me as accurate. Love to hear what people with more knowledge of economics think about the debt foundation of American prosperity.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:

The points about internal decay strike me as accurate. Love to hear what people with more knowledge of economics think about the debt foundation of American prosperity.[/quote]

I thought it was commonly accepted that we are becoming like Rome.

Bloated government, corrupted officials, and this constant urge to spread ourselves too thin.

Unless things change we will suffer the same fate they did. Eventually grow too big to sustain ourselves.

I enjoyed the article. Lots of solid data to back the argument that the vigor and dominance of western civilization is receding in various ways while that of the east is on the upward trend.

It’s hard to envision the east dominating the west. A more equal balance of power seems far more likely. The east is racing to acquire the first world lifestyle that will have the same effects on them as it did on us.

Imperial power resting on military is just no longer as viable of a strategy in an age of weapons of mass destruction. America may lose its nuclear primacy(first strike capability that render retaliation impossible) but another nation gaining that over us is not likely to happen.

When Rome fell as an empire it was just a matter of time before others rose. When the current west falls it will either be a profound regression of all civilization or the beginning of a more global civilization with a more equal balance of power.

Really quick response:

  1. Overcentralization?

  2. Too much money aggregated at the public level to provide for bread and circuses?

  3. Confiscatory taxation?

  4. Extensive resources used to police the world?

  5. Loss of Roman ideals - as in, the privileged life we lead is no longer worth sacrificing for, and all the great things about Romans, purchased through hard efforts of founding statesmen, are now entitlements that are birthrights, not things we have to work to preserve?

More like Rome every single day.

[quote]gdol wrote:

The points about internal decay strike me as accurate. Love to hear what people with more knowledge of economics think about the debt foundation of American prosperity.[/quote]

Luckily for you, I’m more Augustus than nero.

I’ll be kind, after I dissolve the Republic.

If you disagree with me, however…

JeffR

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
5. Loss of Roman ideals - as in, the privileged life we lead is no longer worth sacrificing for, and all the great things about Romans, purchased through hard efforts of founding statesmen, are now entitlements that are birthrights, not things we have to work to preserve?
[/quote]

I’m not sure you had habeas corpus in mind when you wrote that.

[quote]lixy wrote:

I’m not sure you had habeas corpus in mind when you wrote that.[/quote]

Your statement makes no sense.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

I’m not sure you had habeas corpus in mind when you wrote that.

Your statement makes no sense.

[/quote]

Noooooooooooooooo…

If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Someday, our debt will implode. We will become a military dictatorship, to maintain order. Then the world will long for what are now the ‘good old days’. Together, China and the USA will dominate the world (we’ll emulate somewhat their political/economic structure). We’re screwed.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

I’m not sure you had habeas corpus in mind when you wrote that.

Your statement makes no sense.
[/quote]

Bush apparently said that particular privilege gets in the way of doing his job. Since you almost always come out to defend Dubya’s policies, I assumed you would side with him on that as well. Hence, my ambivalence as to whether you had that in mind when talking about lost privileges.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Someday, our debt will implode. We will become a military dictatorship, to maintain order. Then the world will long for what are now the ‘good old days’. Together, China and the USA will dominate the world (we’ll emulate somewhat their political/economic structure). We’re screwed. [/quote]

China can not sustain the current growth for long, they will plateu eventually, and it is not in the far, far future. A steadily more federal European Union is a far more rational and propable power centre in the future.

The ultimate goal of many EU politicans is to create a close federation of states, fare closer than the current EU, and the European Court follows this ideal.

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Someday, our debt will implode. We will become a military dictatorship, to maintain order. Then the world will long for what are now the ‘good old days’. Together, China and the USA will dominate the world (we’ll emulate somewhat their political/economic structure). We’re screwed.

China can not sustain the current growth for long, they will plateu eventually, and it is not in the far, far future. A steadily more federal European Union is a far more rational and propable power centre in the future.

The ultimate goal of many EU politicans is to create a close federation of states, fare closer than the current EU, and the European Court follows this ideal.

[/quote]

Oceania, Eastasia, Eurasia…pretty plausible.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.
[/quote]

Good call, given we’re having a little trouble controlling a country of 25 million.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Good call, given we’re having a little trouble controlling a country of 25 million.[/quote]

The population would be drastically reduced by reprisals, the population cowed by massive bombings.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Good call, given we’re having a little trouble controlling a country of 25 million.

The population would be drastically reduced by reprisals, the population cowed by massive bombings.

[/quote]

and the 100 million insurgents giving us hell.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Good call, given we’re having a little trouble controlling a country of 25 million.

The population would be drastically reduced by reprisals, the population cowed by massive bombings.

[/quote]

Yeah, that worked real well for the Russians in Afghanistan and the Germans in Yugoslavia.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If we do become like Rome, the rest of the world should be terrified. Imagine a dictator with the military might of the United States; it probably would become a Thousand Year Reich.

Good call, given we’re having a little trouble controlling a country of 25 million.

The population would be drastically reduced by reprisals, the population cowed by massive bombings.

[/quote]

Oh Headhunter, please stop playing with yourself and wipe that drool of your chin.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Bush apparently said that particular privilege gets in the way of doing his job. Since you almost always come out to defend Dubya’s policies, I assumed you would side with him on that as well. Hence, my ambivalence as to whether you had that in mind when talking about lost privileges.[/quote]

Here is a copy of the Constitution:

Here is the part about habeas corpus:

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

I realize the concept of a constitution must be very foreign to you, but habeas protections are subject to the constraints of national security.

This, of course, assumes that broad habeas has been suspended - which, it has not.

But then again, trying to educate you on the privilege of habeas and the facts surrounding its suspenions is a waste of time - your ideology doesn’t allow for input of objective information - your mind is already made up before you learn about it - and facts slide off like they were hitting teflon.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

More like Rome every single day.[/quote]

Civilizations rise, civilizations fall–we can call it a “natural fluctuation” of history.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Bush apparently said that particular privilege gets in the way of doing his job. Since you almost always come out to defend Dubya’s policies, I assumed you would side with him on that as well. Hence, my ambivalence as to whether you had that in mind when talking about lost privileges.

Here is a copy of the Constitution:

Here is the part about habeas corpus:

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

I realize the concept of a constitution must be very foreign to you, but habeas protections are subject to the constraints of national security.

This, of course, assumes that broad habeas has been suspended - which, it has not.

But then again, trying to educate you on the privilege of habeas and the facts surrounding its suspenions is a waste of time - your ideology doesn’t allow for input of objective information - your mind is already made up before you learn about it - and facts slide off like they were hitting teflon.

[/quote]

so we are being invaded? or is there a rebellion going on now?