All this talk and nobody cares what the goal of the user is -
If you want a good multi, the pak is great, but you'll pay a little more for it.
If you want an non-hardcore supp that offers some potential, the stak2 isn't bad. At least, I got something from it.
If you want a hardcore supp that will put on pounds of muscle and shred fat like a cheese grader, look for something else.