Are Our Values Backward?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
It is a fantasy precisely because reality is different.

You mean two hot chicks going at it doesn’t happen all the time at college…? [/quote]

Say it ain’t so!

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Screwing in public? What’s next, taking a dump in each other’s yards, and sniffing strangers’ asses?[/quote]

Everybody poops.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Right. But a) kids aren’t fully mentally developed and b) repeated exposure to certain stimuli or fantasies can and DOES have an impact on development. Not all the time, but it certainly does in some people.

How does a child who has no frame of reference know what he is seeing is a fantasy or even “sinful”. The first time I remember seeing a naked girl I was six. My mom made a point to tell me it was wrong to want to see girls naked (how I interpreted it) and from that day forward I wanted to see them naked but was now ashamed of it.

Had my mother acted casually about this event I may never have been so awkward around women as a teenager thru my 20somethings. Luckily my wife found that to be an endearing quality in me.[/quote]

That’s precisely my point lifty. We agree here, to a degree.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I don’t think violence was as prominent in the average daily life of a typical person in history as we may have been led to believe. History, I think, gives a biased view because conflict is always framed as the crank that turns epochs. Ideas, any and all of them, are much more important and play a larger role to society than war. History is human action in the past; human action is the culmination of ideas. Yes, wars have been fought over ideas but all products of humanity are also the result of ideas. [/quote]

Are you serious? Aren’t you the same guy who equates spanking with violence? Aren’t you the same guy who doesn’t want to expose his kids to such violence?

Yet you would have no problem grabbing a cooler, heading to the park and forcing them to watch a sex scene?

I think whether or not “time outs” are effective should be the least of your worries.

Violence has been a way of life up until the very recent past. Life has historically been a very violent existence. So much so, that you don’t even need to teach boys to fight, or play war. I would even say it is instinctive.

Video games and movies are no different than me and my friends having rock wars in the alley, or dirt clod fights at the vacant lot. A different medium for a different time.

I think allowing a pornographic movie to be filmed in a public park in view of children is far more detrimental than an electronic dirt clod fight.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Yet you would have no problem grabbing a cooler, heading to the park and forcing them to watch a sex scene?[/quote]

Forcing them?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Screwing in public? [/quote]

Imagine a world where people are that comfortable with themselves and what others may think of them that it isn’t considered a bad thing…

It must have been this way once before. When did people learn to feel shame about it?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Violence has been a way of life up until the very recent past. Life has historically been a very violent existence. So much so, that you don’t even need to teach boys to fight, or play war. I would even say it is instinctive.
[/quote]

I have held my tongue because I realize that words are indeed wasted on you but I must say you are a FUCKING IDIOT.

Violence is natural in little boys because they don’t know that cooperation is possible until we teach them. Animals fight with each other because they have no concept for cooperation other that the little that gets them by with hunting in packs, etc. Humans are way beyond this phase of evolution – hence exchange.

Violence is not a way of life but rather GETS IN THE WAY OF IT. Maybe you like to live like brutal animal but I do not. Some of us can learn and have moved on to become civilized.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Violence has been a way of life up until the very recent past. Life has historically been a very violent existence. So much so, that you don’t even need to teach boys to fight, or play war. I would even say it is instinctive.

I have held my tongue because I realize that words are indeed wasted on you but I must say you are a FUCKING IDIOT.

Violence is natural in little boys because they don’t know that cooperation is possible until we teach them. Animals fight with each other because they have no concept for cooperation other that the little that gets them by with hunting in packs, etc. Humans are way beyond this phase of evolution – hence exchange.

Violence is not a way of life but rather GETS IN THE WAY OF IT. Maybe you like to live like brutal animal but I do not. Some of us can learn and have moved on to become civilized.[/quote]

You are a clueless idiot. I truly pity your children.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Violence has been a way of life up until the very recent past. Life has historically been a very violent existence. So much so, that you don’t even need to teach boys to fight, or play war. I would even say it is instinctive.

I have held my tongue because I realize that words are indeed wasted on you but I must say you are a FUCKING IDIOT.

Violence is natural in little boys because they don’t know that cooperation is possible until we teach them. Animals fight with each other because they have no concept for cooperation other that the little that gets them by with hunting in packs, etc. Humans are way beyond this phase of evolution – hence exchange.

Violence is not a way of life but rather GETS IN THE WAY OF IT. Maybe you like to live like brutal animal but I do not. Some of us can learn and have moved on to become civilized.

You are a clueless idiot. I truly pity your children. [/quote]

x2

Wow. The peanut gallery has spoken. I rest my case.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Wow. The peanut gallery has spoken. I rest my case.[/quote]

You ARE the peanut gallery. I certainly hope you rest, and try not to embarrass yourself further.

Violence was a way of life. I hardly think it’s necessary outside of defense in the modern world.

Sex on the other hand is a natural and necessary part of life. A lot of people would equate it to food and water.

BUT I don’t believe exposing children to pornography is a good thing. The porn I’ve seen is hardly a good indication of normal adult sexual relationships. Especially for developing minds.

Hopefully my opinion pisses you all off equally, otherwise I’ll feel sad.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Wow. The peanut gallery has spoken. I rest my case.

You ARE the peanut gallery. I certainly hope you rest, and try not to embarrass yourself further. [/quote]

I am waiting for an intelligible argument from you that doesn’t just involve ad hominems – not to say I don’t enjoy the attention from you. Please just do it once. Tell me why VIOLENCE IS NATURAL.

Just to give to a jumping off point I will say everything that happens is in nature and therefore “natural”. Now please tell me why it is in our nature to be violent yet sex is not.

Sex is necessary for life. Violence is not.

(Don’t try feeding us any more BS about me forcing my kids to watch porn. That is an other logical fallacy called a strawman argument.)

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
etaco wrote:
Somehow for millions of years our species survived with the young seeing death, violence and sex (one room huts) not just on a frequent basis, but as a part of life. Now with society making this stuff outright taboo to the young I think it has a fetishizing effect for many. The effect these things have on kids have as much to do with the reaction of their parents and the kids’ socialization as it does with the material itself.

I don’t think violence was as prominent in the average daily life of a typical person in history as we may have been led to believe. History, I think, gives a biased view because conflict is always framed as the crank that turns epochs. Ideas, any and all of them, are much more important and play a larger role to society than war. History is human action in the past; human action is the culmination of ideas. Yes, wars have been fought over ideas but all products of humanity are also the result of ideas.

I think violence didn’t become really understood by regular non military society until mass warfare was brought about by mechanization. Before that battles were fought up close and personal and the average person didn’t take part except when they were invaded and or conquered. There is also a real difference between witnessing violence first hand and being desensitized by it through repetitious fake murder.

I think violence is detrimental to the natural progression of ideas which is the essence of humanity. Without ideas we are just monkeys.[/quote]

Well … just to take one example, ancient Greece … arguably the most intellectually and artistically prolific society in history … they had a profound and extensive military history with a tremendous amount of violence? Take any 200 year slice of classical Greek history and you’d have dozens and dozens of wars, sacking, pillaging with resulting famine and disease. And it was not a distant impersonal violence. Quite the contrary. Villages were burned to the ground … men killed and women and children were sold into slavery …

Not only can you not separate ideas and violence. It’s hard to deny a direct correlation. The same animus that creates great ideas creates great violence.

Coincidentally we’re on a website called Testosterone Nation …

[quote]flyboy51v wrote:

Well … just to take one example, ancient Greece … arguably the most intellectually and artistically prolific society in history … they had a profound and extensive military history with a tremendous amount of violence? Take any 200 year slice of classical Greek history and you’d have dozens and dozens of wars, sacking, pillaging with resulting famine and disease. And it was not a distant impersonal violence. Quite the contrary. Villages were burned to the ground … men killed and women and children were sold into slavery …[/quote]

Which was precisely my point about the bias of history being framed from the point of view of conflict. We focus on Greek wars and their violent mythology and yet their ideas of geometry and philosophy are still around us. Socrates was murdered over ideas.

[quote]
Not only can you not separate ideas and violence. It’s hard to deny a direct correlation. The same animus that creates great ideas creates great violence. [/quote]

Violence and ideas are not mutually exclusive. In fact, violence can ultimately stop ideas from ever happening.

Violence is really just a superficial quality of the deeper psyche of man. He hurts because he is incapable of any other method of obtaining ends. The same as any dumb animal.

[quote]
Coincidentally we’re on a website called Testosterone Nation.[/quote]

I don’t see a connection. It makes us men but does it necessarily make us killers?

OP … do you not see the irony in pointing out that ideas are what separates us from monkeys … and then going on to say that we should approach sex more like animals?

Monkeys have no sexual inhibitions. At least none that I’ve ever observed. Monkeys would be fine with sex in public … sex with multiple partners … sex in front of the “kids” etc, etc. I’m pretty sure monkeys would love porn … all kinds.

Has it occurred to you that to truly leave monkey violence behind we’ll probably have to leave monkey sex behind as well …

I love bein sheltered from sex…it makes every pair of tits I see that much sweeter. Why would I want to be desentistived to that?

[quote]tg2hbk4488 wrote:
I love bein sheltered from sex…it makes every pair of tits I see that much sweeter. Why would I want to be desentistived to that?[/quote]

Being desensitized to breasts is unpossible.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
tg2hbk4488 wrote:
I love bein sheltered from sex…it makes every pair of tits I see that much sweeter. Why would I want to be desentistived to that?

Being desensitized to breasts is unpossible.[/quote]

Sure it is. Europe is that way. Its on tv and in there newspapers. People could careless. They still find them attractive, but they arent like “DAMMMNNNN!!” or “Allright!” like I am. I perfer the latter

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
flyboy51v wrote:

Well … just to take one example, ancient Greece … arguably the most intellectually and artistically prolific society in history … they had a profound and extensive military history with a tremendous amount of violence? Take any 200 year slice of classical Greek history and you’d have dozens and dozens of wars, sacking, pillaging with resulting famine and disease. And it was not a distant impersonal violence. Quite the contrary. Villages were burned to the ground … men killed and women and children were sold into slavery …

Which was precisely my point about the bias of history being framed from the point of view of conflict. We focus on Greek wars and their violent mythology and yet their ideas of geometry and philosophy are still around us. Socrates was murdered over ideas.

Not only can you not separate ideas and violence. It’s hard to deny a direct correlation. The same animus that creates great ideas creates great violence.

Violence and ideas are not mutually exclusive. In fact, violence can ultimately stop ideas from ever happening.

Violence is really just a superficial quality of the deeper psyche of man. He hurts because he is incapable of any other method of obtaining ends. The same as any dumb animal.

Coincidentally we’re on a website called Testosterone Nation.

I don’t see a connection. It makes us men but does it necessarily make us killers?

[/quote]

we’re getting off topic a bit here.

Basically your original thought was that we should worry more about video games and less about the porn videos being filmed in our playgrounds. Right?

From there it moved to Thucydides as biased historian skewing Greek history so that we focus on their wars and not their euclidean geometry and praxitiles and Plato and Socrates and Democracy. Which is ridiculous on its face because I doubt you could find 1 person in a thousand that understands a Greek Phalanx but you’d find quite a few who could identify a Greek column in Washington or a Greek statue … or Democracy for that matter. Their violence is hardly what we focus on. My point was simply that they had an abundance of both and you said one kills the other. You brought up Socrates … he was a soldier decorated for bravery in a number of famous Athenian campaigns and the father of modern philosophy? Hmmmm.

People with a liberal world view purposely exclude moraility which would help them place the pornography and the violence in it’s proper perspective.

Our values are only backwards, in other words, if you remove all moral perspective. With a moral perspective … kids and pornography don’t mix and all violence is not created equal. Violence in defense of the good is not something you would want to get rid of.

Hence I’d be personally much more concerned about my kids watching sex in the playground than I am with my kids playing video games … or playing with toy guns for that matter. In regards to the video games I’m assuming you’ve got problems with any games that have guns or weapons or fighting of any kind? I’d certainly be with you on the gratuitously violent/gory stuff …