[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:
I suppose powerlifting is perceived as non-technical as well?
‘What? You put the bar on your shoulders and squat down and stand up. What’s difficult about that? You just bend over and pick the bar up. You just lay down and push the weight off of your chest.’
Right.[/quote]
Learning the olympic lifts pretty much mean that you can do ANY LIFT. The olympic lifts are not only effective for developing power, but also has the ability to improve you CNS’s ability to solve complex motor tasks… So yeah, powerlifting is waaay easier. Here are a few pointers in the power squat:
-push your knees and feet outwards
-shins should barely move
-put some air in your belly
-bar position should be low
-head goes up first
-…that’s pretty much it…
There’s a reason why Simmons and Tate can teach a novice how to squat within just a few hours.
I can understand how the olympic lifts can be complicated while you’re doing it, but what I don’t get is that why in the world would bulgarians and communists divide it into 6-10 phases?? There are certain things about a lift where if you do something right, everything else will seem to get better naturally.
For example, in the bench press, instead of having a powerlifting coach instruct someone to retract his shoulder blades and bend the bar, he can just instruct his lifter to “retract your shoulder blades downwards”. In the power squat, if you tell the lifter to keep his shins as pependicular to the floor as he can possibly can, he would naturally “sit back”.
I just started (2-3 weeks ago) learning the oly lifts with a coach. They are very complicated. Everytime I fix one thing something else breaks. It’s so hard to put it all together.
Having said that it is the most fun I’ve ever had lifting. I originally only met this coach to learn the power clean, so that I can do it on my own. I’ve had so much fun that now I’m thinking about competing down the road. I’m afraid of making an ass of myself though, ha.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
I can understand how the olympic lifts can be complicated while you’re doing it, but what I don’t get is that why in the world would bulgarians and communists divide it into 6-10 phases?? There are certain things about a lift where if you do something right, everything else will seem to get better naturally.
For example, in the bench press, instead of having a powerlifting coach instruct someone to retract his shoulder blades and bend the bar, he can just instruct his lifter to “retract your shoulder blades downwards”. In the power squat, if you tell the lifter to keep his shins as pependicular to the floor as he can possibly can, he would naturally “sit back”.[/quote]
As the others have said, there is alot more to it then just doing the exercise. You cant just say to most people “retract the shoulders downwards”, they dont know what it means or how to properly do it. More people than you think have trouble keeping their shins perpendicular.
And as for complexity of movements when compared to parts of the lift,…lets take the squat:
approach
lift off
walk out
stance
set–taking in air, setting the back, locking the legs, etc…
hip flex
setting path with knees out and hips back
dip in the hole
explosion out the hole
lock out
rack
and the whole time learning which foot placement is best, exactly how much pivot you need in your hips, how you need to set your hands, elbows, back, and head, where to look at…you get it.
My OLY lifts are simple because i know how to do them and I do them light…but once you start to push the envelope abit, you start seeing how complex they are.
IMHO the level of complexity depends of what level do you want to perform.
If you think about it running is that complicated if you want to compete at 100m but if you just want to do some sprints to burn some fat its not.
The same thing about Oly lifts, is the goal to do some power cleans safely to improve in mma for example or lift very heavy weights in competition?
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
I can understand how the olympic lifts can be complicated while you’re doing it, but what I don’t get is that why in the world would bulgarians and communists divide it into 6-10 phases?? There are certain things about a lift where if you do something right, everything else will seem to get better naturally.
[/quote]
The communists?? Serious lol.
Furthermore, mega lol at you telling the most successful countries in the world how they SHOULD do things.
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
I disagree as well. I think they are equally complicated, but with golf you have things that are beyond your control that can affect the outcome (weather, surface conditions, etc). I think golf is more difficult for that reason.
But I suck at both so what the hell do I know.[/quote]
They’re referring to the golf swing, not comparing the sports themselves.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
TYPE2B wrote:
I can understand how the olympic lifts can be complicated while you’re doing it, but what I don’t get is that why in the world would bulgarians and communists divide it into 6-10 phases?? There are certain things about a lift where if you do something right, everything else will seem to get better naturally.
The communists?? Serious lol.
Furthermore, mega lol at you telling the most successful countries in the world how they SHOULD do things.
[/quote]
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
There’s a reason why Simmons and Tate can teach a novice how to squat within just a few hours.[/quote]
Wow. You’ve just shown your limited knowledge of what it takes to truly do it right. Ask either Simmons or Tate or any truly experienced powerlifter and they will tell you it takes more than “a few hours” to learn how to do it properly.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
I can understand how the olympic lifts can be complicated while you’re doing it, but what I don’t get is that why in the world would bulgarians and communists divide it into 6-10 phases?? There are certain things about a lift where if you do something right, everything else will seem to get better naturally.[/quote]
The phases are merely thought up by coaches to explain the lifts to their athletes. They are used as mental cues by the athletes to understand when and why they need to move a certain way.
The lifts are a very very very athletic skill. To the average lifter, yes its quite simple. But if you want to actually be good and excel, there are many factors you have to workout in these lifts. That being said, it is hard to naturally develop these lifts, you need coaching and an objective view to actually progress.
You can’t compare coaching of the PL Lifts and OL Lifts. They are two different animals, therefore different ways to coach them. As I am not familiar with PLing I will not comment on PLing. However if you compare OLing to the method you’re mentioning, it doesn’t pan out. My coach can tell me to keep the bar close and I can make a concious effort to do so, but the lifts are so dynamic and they happen so fast, I am unlikely to actually do it the first time. It takes years of practice and hundreds upon hundreds of reminders till I am truely “keeping the bar close”.
Are you trying to justify not having a coach and Olympic Lifting with these threads?
There’s one phase in any concentric only lift- that’s “up”. But there a lot of nuances- probably more than six or ten. In the little time I fucked around with weightlifting in any serious sense, it seemed like I noticed dozens of variables:
stance,
toes out or straight ahead,
grip width,
long arms/slight tension in tris
knees slightly over or behind bar at start,
how much to dip and first,
weight on your mid-foot vs. heels
timing the jump/shrug,
jumping up vs. forward,
pulling under,
etc, etc.
The technique side of it is pretty fucking heavy. Explaining in a finite number of steps probably makes it easier to coach
On the other hand, if you could care less about the finer points of efficient transfer of power, and you just feel like jumping under a heavy moving object, it’s very simple. Just rip it high and catch it.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
Exactly how many phases do the olympic lifts have anyway? And what are they?[/quote]
Most people would agree with this:
Set position : where your ready to pull the weight but you haven’t moved the bar yet
1st pull : bar to mid thigh or so
2nd pull : bar from mid thigh to full extension, hips in and up, head up high, on tip toes, shoulders shrugged
Receive/ Rack position : under the bar in the Snach, Clean elbows whip through in to front squat position
Squat up : Snatch, bar is over head, Clean you front squat up
Jerk:
Set: body tight, holding breath
Dip
Drive
Dip/ receive : bar over head
Recovery : move feet so that they come together, text book form indicates front foot moves backwards then back foot comes forwards, but people like me will dance about before being able to recovery out of the Jerk
You only break the lifts down later to work on ‘specific’ weakness’s that you have.
Invictica, Koing, and Pinto pretty much said it all. Thanks guys…
…anyway, what If I’m too arrogant to hire a coach? How do I deal with it? I personally don’t like some dude telling me what to do (especially with my training sessions!).
I don’t participate in OL myself, but know in person some guys who are not too far from making it to national level at home.
It is almost a guarantee that you will never make it to a high level if you do not use an OL coach. Ever.
If you just wanna do it as a hobby or as assistance training for your sport, you can get by doing it yourself, just read up articles on the lifts here and watch instructionals. Also getting monstrously strong on the Front Squat and OH squat might be something you can do on your own.
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
Invictica, Koing, and Pinto pretty much said it all. Thanks guys…
…anyway, what If I’m too arrogant to hire a coach? How do I deal with it? I personally don’t like some dude telling me what to do (especially with my training sessions!).[/quote]
Are you going to compete? If so, check your ego at the door. You need a coach to call your lifts on the platform, sign you up for competitions, adjust your training cycles, coach your technique, track your progress.
If you’re not gonna compete, well who cares right? Just do your own thing.
go the more direct route, right to the main issue and figure out why you have such a problem with people telling you what to do (if you cant even have a coach for something, it is at the point where your disregard for authority or inability to take direction by people more experienced than yourself is out of hand and you need to fix it, on Your end) …and then, once thats sorted, getting a coach wont be such a bad thing afterall and your olympic lifting will be much better than if you tried to do it on your own, its a win-win for you
[quote]TYPE2B wrote:
…anyway, what If I’m too arrogant to hire a coach? How do I deal with it? I personally don’t like some dude telling me what to do (especially with my training sessions!).[/quote]
Then don’t hire a damn coach. It’s like this. Either you stop making these sucky threads, get a coach and have a shot at getting good. Or, just do the lifts casually and accept that you’ll never be competitive. You can’t be a champ without accepting criticism. All in all, you’re a clown and I am impressed that knowledgeable people are encouraging you by replying.