T Nation

Are Men on TRT Considered “Natural?”

So to get back to my original question, at 900-1100 t-level and 53 years old, can I handle a little more volume than what is outlined in The Best Workout Program for Natural lifters. I love the program but miss grinding out a few more sets.

Sure. Do what you like.

I think consistency will give you more gains than ‘grinding’. You can save a session every week or so where you try harder.

I guess that would be TRT so long as there were no negative side effects and it would be provided by a competent MD.

But keep in mind I think many gym rats on TRT and Cyborg TRT are or become hypochondriacs, so in tune with every fiber of their being on a daily basis that they can actually discern their up-and-down hormone values.

I’ve injected 100 once per week and 50 twice per week. I can’t tell any difference. I’ve tested at 900 a day after injecting 100 mg and late week in the 400s. Nothing bad was experienced. Imagine if God created us so fragile that we were affected by fluctuating physiologically-normal hormone levels?

I’ve experienced only one side effect from TRT, testicular atrophy. As with T use, I’m not inclined to believe HCG provides baboon-like testicular hypertrophy. I used up to 1000 IU thrice per week to have my kids and that didn’t do much for that side effect. I’ve seen from forum posts with discussion on the hangup on this, as if one’s partner is going to be doing testicular exams or even care about it.

People make TRT some complicated science project. That’s why I don’t go to the TRT forum much. Plus I don’t want to offend people or be driven off of here. And I don’t intend to sound callous here either.

I’m in agreement with CT.

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I used them once. I didn’t like them at all.

It’s likely unnecessary but you can try that out and see what happens.

I believe this. People attribute far too much to tiny psychotropic effects of medicines. I think the social architecture does much more than small medication changes.
People in very successful positions abuse drugs and maintain some awful personal dynamics. No one cares. Unsuccessful people try to find ways to complain about small slights or tiny physiological influences when their problem is their position in the larger social structure of the world.

(Some medicines can make a difference, like high dose finasteride, statins, hard recreational ones, and other very strong ones. Most small stuff does too little for most people to notice.)

No problems recovering fertility after years of atrophy?

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It seems that if anyone has different experiences with TRT than yours then they are over complicating it and doing it wrong?

No much of a problem. I used HCG for about half a year and that was it for my first kid. I stayed on it for second and now I’m on maintenance dose of 500 IU twice a week in case we want a third.

Not muscle mass, but there is a difference re fat distribution

I recall seeing one study indicative an increase of roughly 1300ng/dl from baseline is required to accrue significant amounts of muscle mass in a short period of time.

Actually Brickhead has a point. Given the pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics relating to testosterone replacement, particularly long estered testosterone there isn’t much of a need for high frequency injections. it’s overkill, I’d gauge for most 1-2x/wk injections should be more than adequate provided we are referring to testosterone cypionate/enanthate and not testosterone propionate.

If daily shots make you feel better… Great, keep doing that; no harm done. Yet there is no literature backing this pattern of use to be superior. Literature or lack thereof doesn’t always supercede anecdote, as it is plausible a superior pattern of use has been discovered that hasn’t been clinically trialled get. That being said any purported benefit to daily/EOD shots of long estered test defies the pharmacological profile associated with test E/C. It appears many are fixated on minute variables and/or even the smallest changes regarding blood work, dietary intervention, body composition and chalk everything up to TRT, or the most minute changes made to protocol.

As to blatantly supraphysiologic dosing and/or “enhanced” trt as defined by high dose testosterone year round and/or TRT + a bit of deca/mast/primo sprinkled in there for the purpose of “optimisation”… If you haven’t found “optimisation” within therapeutic realms perhaps other avenues need to be pursued. Not every emotion, twinge of motivation/percieved energy or lack thereof relates to testosterone. Somatized depression, anxiety/other psychiatric pathology can significantly impede QOL regardless of hormonal concentration. I get the feeling many put far too much emphasis on TRT in effort to treat underlying mental health ailments (at times.)

There are those trying to fool themselves a TT of 1500, FT of 50 is “TRT” because “it makes me feel good… And look at how much muscle mass I’ve gained”. This isn’t trt… I’ve tried 200mg/wk, I’ve tried 250mg/wk, I’ve tried 100mg/wk. There is an increase in muscle mass almost directly proportional to the dose used regardless of dietary/regiment alteration. 250mg/wk knocks 100mg/wk so far out of the fucking park it’s not an apt comparison (got me to 1500ng/dl a few days post shot).

To note I don’t have any qualms with people using “enhanced TRT”… I just wish people were more honest with themselves, admitting 300mg/wk clearly isn’t healthy long term; that it isn’t TRT regardless of what doctor moneybags says down at X,Y or Z “anti aging” clinic down in Miami.

In this retrospect @brickhead I’d argue there is a difference between 750-1500ng/dl. Though I haven’t percieved any significant difference between 600-1000ng/dl aside from increased libido.

Finally… All this talk of “androgen resistance”. This is a blanket term seemingly used en mass by those trying to justify using supra doses year round. PAIS/MAIS are very real, yet very rare medical conditions. You can test for these via generic analysis. I’m currently receiving a test to ascertain as to whether I have a long term neurodegenerative disease (variant of MND) of which is associated with PAIS/MAIS. This shit is NOT common, the way people talk about “androgen resistance” as a blanket term really grinds my gears.

The chances of you actually having androgen resistance are like 100,000 to 1 (or less). Though in my case I’ve been told it’s more like 200-1. If you think you have androgen resistance, contact an endocrinologist/andrologist to receive testing. If you actually test positive, now you can justify using higher dosages for therapeutic effect.

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I’m sure there are some cases like that. But many treat TRT as some muscle building scheme. I look at TRT as medicine and nothing else. It appears the sedentary people I’ve met on TRT are not complicated and report improvements in physical and mental function. I don’t think that’s coincidental.

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But if I’m not gaining 100lbs on my bench press within the first two months it isn’t TRT. I correlate my success with TRT with how much I can bench brah.

That’s why my TRT protocol consists of 250mg test/wk. This way I can squat, bench and deadlift every other day. Isn’t that what TRT is all about?

That being said, I was jacked like Christian Thibaudeau I reckon I’d probably need like 250mg/wk just to maintain muscle mass. The man is an absolute tank, built like a brickshithouse

My actual TRT dose (nearly year round) is 100-125mg/wk. I’d argue even 125mg/wk allows me to maintain a slight edge over most natural sedentary men. When I was hypogonadal I wasn’t very good at athletics aside from weightlifting as motor recruitment patterns were engrained from weightlifting at a young age. At this point I’m quite athletic, although I do appear to ever so slowly be stagnating and/or perhaps even be loosing strength in certain departments… I really hope I don’t have a serious neuromuscular disorder… + PAIS… God that’d just be another shit-sandwhich atop of SO many others…

@brickhead

How strong are you btw? I’ve seen photos of you and you look very impressive (do you still have 18 inch biceps?).

I don’t like telling people within my demographic about TRT. It opens the door to irritating, obnoxious questions like “so… Does it shrink your penis”, “did you grow titties?” “How horny are you right now?” “Do you have unreasonable anger as a result?” “Shame, that really sucks… Do you have to do this for the rest of your life?”

Questions 1-3… Not appropriate. Question 5… Not shame… Who cares, those with type 1 diabeties have to inject insulin daily, that’s far worse.

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The biggest my arms were 17. Stu had 18. I considered myself moderately strong.

How I solely for general fitness and I’ve been on a bodyweight kick for several months.my gym has great equipment for this: plyo boxes, chin-up bars of varying heights, Swedish ladder (is that the name?), rings, parallets.

I’m currently on the cookie cutter ring and parallet program by the Kavadlo brothers. I can’t weight to do rings and cals outdoor. I want to aim for levers, handstand, and human flag. I think I’ll have muscle ups come summer time. I feel like I’m starting a whole new hobby.

I have also been jogging for cardio, 2 to 3 times a week in the brutal NY cold.

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Regarding bodyweight training. Have you noticed any difference pertaining to body composition in comparison to weight training?

I did gymnastics for a while as a kid/teenager. As a result I can still hop on the rings and do the basics (hold myself up for indefinite periods of time, dips, some more complicated stuff I don’t remember the name of). I actually have a pair of rings in my garage, they’re great fun aren’t they :slight_smile:

Have you tried boxing? It’s the best of both worlds (aerobic + anaerobic).

How far do you jog? I used to go for 3-4 miles ED/EOD. I’d argue the cold is better than blistering Australian summer heat btw.

As to human flag… That’s going to take a whiillllleee. Are you referring to being able to do a handstand on still rings? That’ll take you like 3 years + to accomplish. Rings are very unstable, pull-ups, dips… Basically anything is like 10x harder to do on rings as opposed to parallel bars/on the ground.

I’m sure you’ve got this down pat, but three tips I can give. Make sure you have adequate shoulder mobility before going in for ring dips. If prone to rotator cuff injury I’d stay away from Bulgarian dips. Frequent overuse of rings (dipping motions in particular) can also trigger costochondritis, and this can be quite painful.

It’s actually interesting in that ring dips/ring training appears to cross over to benching strength. If you can hold a straddle planche on rings, chances are you can bench at least 225 even if you don’t train bench at all. Gymnastics, particularly the still rings will give you insane pound for pound upper body strength provided you train consistently.

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Yea I could see that, I’ve never met a person in real life who got on for the gym gains. Me included. But it is nice knowing you have healthy levels and if you’re not making progress you can’t blame it on that :joy:

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Yes, if ever. Human flag on pole.

Wish you the best of luck. You’ll probably get to the human flag on a pole before you get to being able to go from support hold to handstand on still rings.

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under 1500-1700’s T-level ,is useless in muscle game (size,recovery) .
not all is testosterone . p.c. a good sleep and high protein do better for T-level. -my veiw