T Nation

Archetypes of the Mature Masculine and Help


#1

Well, this discussion will be based off the book King, Warrior, Magician, Lover and some thoughts of mine.

Well first off, I'm 19 and I would say that I'm a very polarizing person and people who know me in real life, they either really dislike me or vice versa. Recently, I've come into quite a few social scuffles with people and that has got me thinking. Doing a little soul searching if you may. Upon asking a few people, I've been described with words such as Alpha, Egoistic, Arrogant, Domineering, Aggressive and so on. I've heard this words used on me before but I never really understood them. I get what the words mean but I simply cannot comprehend why they were used on me or rather, why was I perceived in such ways. This got me thinking and I remembered said book mentioned above.

I took the test based off the book ( http://www.integralpsychology.org/uploads/1/5/3/0/15300482/king_warrior_magician_lover_inventory.pdf ) and my results were as follows. I am 75% warrior, 12% king and 6% magican and 6% lover.

In all honesty, I don't really know what this means. I've yet to read the whole book but I've read parts of it and excerpts written on it.


To help (hopefully) better illustrate my point and gain a better understanding of me, here are some things I believe in which people I've spoken to claim to be "fucked up" and "not normal" and other possibly useful info.

I don't see the need to appeal to the masses. That would be popularity and it is ultimately counter productive. The masses are stupid and a infestation of mediocrity. Why would I lower myself to their level?

I don't see a need to prove myself to others, my self worth is solely based off my own beliefs and my perception of myself.

I treat people based off their worth(usefulness to me) and the authority(power) which they hold. Since I'm 19 and no one really holds and power, it'd mainly be their worth. I do not view most of my peers as equals and it is often because I feel that they're not... Trying hard enough, for lack of a better way to phrase it.

You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

The most disgusting thing to me is when someone refuses to change and improve despite their obvious flaws pointed out to them. They're filth and I'd rather not associate myself with them.

Often I'd do things and my reasoning for it would be "If I don't do it, who will?"

I'm highly objective and I would look at one's achievements before taking in their advice and even so, I do it with a grain of salt.

I have no trust in people, they're disappointing and bound to fail you eventually.

I would consider myself somewhat emotionally detached from people.

People naturally give in to me.

I've been told that I'm overly aggresive.

I honestly do not know if I'm self centred. The fact that I'm writing this seems to indicate so but at the same time, I would very much rather not post this. That being said, I would say I'm anything but forgettable.


That's about it for now, I would say I'm in a state of confusion as of right now and I'd like feedback and advice. I'm open to criticism because how else, will I change for the better? I would say that I've never had much of a mentor figure in my life, or even a father figure for a matter of fact (got cancer while I was a young age, you get the idea) and I would sincerely like one, to guide me along as such. Part of me feels absolutely pathetic writing this online on a forum but hey, what's to lose? Oh and am I a sociopath?

To relate this back to the book, have y'all read it and I would recommend it as it seems like a fairly good read. To those who haven't, maybe y'all can take the test, nothing to lose eh.

I apologize if this seems hard to read as I didn't exactly plan a structure for the post and it's mostly just me trying to translate the convoluted mess in my mind into words.


#2

Man, I feel like an absolute train wreck and it's kinda amusing to me.


Here are some of the people off the top of my head whom I'd like to call for advice and guidance of sorts. Thanks for reading the entire mess (if you do) and I appreciate any responses.

@T3hPwnisher @MarkKO @usmccds423 @flipcollar @Powerpuff

Oh and I don't mean to disturb but yeah, would really appreciate it.


#3

I think you just answered your own question. If multiple people are telling you, that you are an asshole, then there is a good chance that you are indeed an asshole! If you want people to think differently. You must start to act differently. Regardless if you feel that way or not. You say you don’t care, but if you truly don’t, there would be no need for this post.


#4

Perhaps I’m indeed an asshole, no arguing around that.

That is true, very much so. That being said, I’m not universally hated. I just find it hard to relate to/empathize with most people, not all people. I would say its 90-10. I’m very much capable of going out of my way to get people to like me but that just comes off as wrong and immoral to me.

I don’t care what they (the 90%) think but I do care about the opinions/thoughts of the people close to me and ultimately, I care about ME. I would say its quite hard to find someone who totally gives no shit about anyone.

As for why I’m posting this, it would be because I realize that this is an ongoing “issue” I’ve been having all my life and I feel that it’s only right that I see to it that I do something about it.


#5

You're 19. You have a very typical view for a 19 year old. Without these ideations, kids would never leave the nest.

Now get out there and show the world what you got!

You are doing that, aren't you?


#6

Man... And here I thought I was special. :frowning2: All joking aside though, I don't actually know too many 19 year old who would agree with my views. Perhaps I just ain't meeting the right people? But then again, if everyone agrees with my views, whats that supposed to mean?

Well shit, I can't do that if I don't know what that means, now can I?


#7

Why would they when theirs are the same?

ex:
I feel superior. You feel superior. Same views, now we’re going to see who is right.


#8

It means a lot that you tagged me on this dude. I’ll weigh in with my observations.

The biggest thing that stood out to me was in this section.

Read it over and look at how many times you need to use other people to define YOU. Even if your viewpoints seems to stem from misanthropy, you’re still seemingly dependent on others to establish your own identity, even if it’s a contrarian one.

As has been said, this isn’t that disturbing at 19. You’re still young in the grand scheme of things, and up until this point your peers have always been the measuring stick for yourself. You were in school and evaluated against your peers, you competed in sports against your peers, your dating pool was against your peers, etc. However, now that you’re an “adult”, you have the opportunity to define you by who YOU are, not who you are compared to your peers.

Go through this list again and see if you can find qualities about you that are inherent in you. Find that qualities that you would have if you were the last man on earth and had never seen another human before. The qualities a priori.

Yes, your morals, values and ethics will still be largely shaped by your experiences which involved other people, but you most likely still have some traits that are simply who YOU are. Try to establish them and work from there.

And that’s not an overnight tasking; that’s a lifelong pursuit. I “awakened” right around the same time you did, and I’m still finding out things about myself, both good and bad.

Reading philosophy is something of a shortcut, because someone did all the deep thinking for you, but it’s honestly been a fun way to go about it for me. Read from a LOT of sources, not just the ones you agree with. In fact, see if you can make up compelling arguments for the things you stand AGAINST simply as a mental exercise. This will allow you to see if your beliefs are rational or emotional.

This was a bit of rambling, but I just finished a deadlift workout, haha. Hope it helps.


#9

You're not a sociopath lol. Based on what you wrote you just sound like a narcissist dude. If that's not something you're at peace with, start looking for ways to change.


#10

That might make a lot of sense, thank you. Like I've read about it before but I always just somewhat brushed it off. I'll look more into it, thanks.


#11

@Benanything I'll do what I can to help. It's flattering you number me among people whose opinion you value, by the way.

First off, I'd say about half to three quarters of guys feel like that around your age. It certainly rings bells for me between the ages of 16 and 20 or so. So, you're not a special snowflake in this respect.

@T3hPwnisher is, as usual, pretty much bang on the money with what he said. I will now add a few points of my own.

  1. I suspect life will proceed to smooth your rough edges over the next half decade or so. That's a nice way of saying your views and approach to life are going to be violently introduced to the real world. No prizes for guessing who usually wins. There's nothing wrong with having high standards. I have them. The caveat is that it is neither your job nor your place to impose those standards on others. Your job is to do your best to be the best person you can be. To me, that is summed up by leaving the world better for your existence when it ends. How you achieve that is up to you, but it needn't be grandiose at all. If you are the kind of person whose presence in another person's day can make it a better day, you're doing well.

  2. If you actively tell people you don't have respect for how you feel, you're going to come across as an arsehole (see above). If you make no effort to conceal the fact that you consider yourself superior, again, you'll come across as an arsehole. Then, if you look through an observer's eyes, if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck...

  3. I'll echo what Pwnisher said about defining yourself through your disdain for others. It doesn't work in the long term. What would happen to your identity if you suddenly were completely alone? Again, normal for a dude your age, but you need to find who you are without reference to others. This takes time. Took me until my late 20s, so settle in.

In very, very short: don't worry too much. Try to get along with people, because it makes life a lot easier. You don't have to like them, just don't make it easy for them to dislike you. Sometimes it's as easy as keeping your mouth shut or walking away (I do that a lot). It isn't immoral IMO, because you aren't trying to make them like you to influence them to do something directly. You're just trying to get through life without more people disliking you than necessary.

When you leave home and get a job and have bills and a significant other (and a kid or two way down the track), believe me when I tell you the majority of your mental energy will be devoted to things like your relationship, your family, rent, bills, household chores and your job and then getting an hour to yourself here and there. That's not a bad thing, it's just what happens, and all those concerns about feeling superior and stuff will rarely even register.

For what it's worth I don't think you're a narcissist, or a sociopath, and not an arsehole either. You're a decent young bloke at the tail-end of adolescence with a good work ethic, possibly above average intelligence and, maybe, a personality that doesn't fit as well into your society's norms as others.

While you absolutely shouldn't change your personality, it will make your life easier to find ways to fit in a little better.

With the whole feeling of detachment, that's one I absolutely am familiar with. It doesn't go away, or it hasn't for me. It can be a big help, but can also be a hindrance (more of a help though). For me, it means I'm very picky about who my friends are to the extent I have very, very few people in my life I consider real friends. Again, not a good or bad thing, just how it is.

Same with finding that special someone. When you do tend to not give a shit what other people think and when you tend to be focused and determined, it may take a bit longer to find someone. Also means when you do find someone, they're worth the effort of doing right by.

I think really the TL;DR of this would be:

Nothing wrong with having high standards, but it isn't smart to go around telling people how short they're falling off them. Try to get along with most people superficially, down the track you'll find people you really connect with. Try to make a positive difference to the world by your behaviour and actions.


#12

Jesus man someone needs their hole


#13

@Benanything. Just letting you know I saw this, and am thinking about it. I have some thoughts. I'm busy with family right now with the holiday weekend, but I'll come back to it in a day or two. Thanks for thinking of me in terms of someone you'd want to hear back from.


#14

Counter productive to what?

I tend to agree with the above as far as following social trends, for example, goes, but it’s not so black and white. At 19 life will seem very black/white, right/wrong, etc… There are very few cut and dry situations or issues, IMO.

My personal observation (I’m going to comment line by line) is that your perspective needs some calibration.

You shouldn’t; however, understand that you’re generalizing without knowing the details of each individual person’s life. What they’ve done, what they’ve dealt with, where they started, etc…

You’re making a value judgment based on very limited information.

What if your perception is off? What if you’re blind to your own faults.

I’ve said this here before, being self-critical is far more difficult than being critical of others. A person’s ego always interferes.

Why? Honestly, why is this your value system? Is a veteran sitting in a wheelchair useful to you? Are they useful to anyone? Do they not have worth?

Same goes for power, what if I cheated my way to the top stabbing everyone in the back and burning every possible bridge to get there. Is that worthy of respect?

What about their potential?

Based on what? Your feelings.

Ego makes change difficult.

You think you’re highly objective, but how objective can you be if you think at 19 years old you have the experience, knowledge, or perspective to properly vet people’s advice?

Everyone fails at one time or another in life. Steve Jobs was fired from Apple.

You will fail, eventually.

Everyone thinks they’re special. Ben, I’m sorry to tell you this, but you are not special. There are very few exceptional people in this world.

Do you know what sets these folks apart:

From what I’ve read, they’re able to swallow their pride, suppress their ego, and work towards becoming better.

I’ll use @flipcollar as an example. Dude is a fucking beast. He’s stronger than the vast majority of the members of this forum. He’s also in damn good shape. He could probably compete in men’s physique or Bodybuilding if he wanted to and do fairly well.

He recently posted about a strongman contest where he performed very well and came in 3rd. Awesome stuff. You should read about it in his log. Pay very special attention to the end where he points out he would not go to Nationals even if he had won because he’d be smoked. Here’s one of the strongest guys here acknowledging he still has room to improve. That’s swallowing your ego so you can become better.

You’re young and everyone thinks they’re the shit at 19. I did. Most people do.

My advice (since you asked) you need to think about and understand how truly insignificant you are.

You know very little about life. You are not an expert on anything. You are not the strongest or smartest guy in the room (if you are then you’re in the wrong room).

If you can get over the above (if you truly grasp the above it will be a huge hit to your ego and thus your self-worth) you can begin to truly grow as a person.

Everyone can teach you something if you’re open to it.


#15

I highly recommend this book:
https://smile.amazon.com/Ego-Enemy-Ryan-Holiday/dp/1591847818/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473163081&sr=1-1&keywords=ego+is+the+enemy


#16


#17

in other words: you're fucking 19. You don't know shit and you haven't done anything to be proud of yet so quit being such an arrogant little prick.


#18

Don't know what any of it means, but according to the table I'm:

King: 56%
Warrior: 25%
Magician: 12%
Lover: 6%

Some explanations:


#19

So, basically you are a bit of narcissistic, self-absorbed bellend!

Well, the good news is: You are still very young & can likely grow out of this, the bad new is...it's not going to happen over night!

Try taking some time to really empathize with other people (especially people who are less fortunate than yourself) & I dare say you might learn a few things along the way (namely that A: You are quite lucky & B: You are not quite as special as you think you are).

I'd also say with regards the: I'm a 'very objective' person thing...no, just no. Virtually everyone is highly subjective (especially with regards how they regard themselves) & virtually EVERYONE I've ever come across who has that kind of attitude is basically full of shit.

Good luck:)


#20

Hey man, thanks for mentioning me here!

I think most of what's been said here is really spot on. Good advice and discussion all around.

This has been said already, but since you asked for my input specifically, I'll reiterate an earlier comment that resonated with me. Welcome to being 19. Not to say that this is how every 19 year old thinks, but it's more common than you seem to believe. And I see this ending in one of 2 ways: You end up being a miserable loner asshole in a few years, or you soften your viewpoint and figure out what empathy actually means. You're lacking it now. And that's ok, because legitimate empathy is rare. You asked if you are self-centered, and of course you are. Everyone is and should be, it's how we deal with that absolute fact that defines in a lot of ways. Anyone who is moderately successful or happy in life has come to terms with this being the case. But that being said, being self-centered does not make you an island. Those outside of you clearly do matter to you, otherwise you wouldn't have posted this. You don't have to 'appeal to the masses', but being able to understand them would benefit you. Being able to have conversations with the average Joe, and a true understanding of their perspective, how they come to it, etc. is valuable. If all you do is say 'everyone else is dumb, I'm better than everybody', you're going to miss out on a lot. That's a pretty shitty way to live, and I don't find it to be particularly sustainable.

Here's something I find interesting. You make a contradicting statement when you say 'the most disgusting thing to me is when someone refuses to change despite their obvious flaws pointed out to them.' Meaning, you think other people should be listening to the criticisms of the masses, and yet you're completely against that concept as it relates to yourself. That's pretty hypocritical, and I think you need to resolve that in your own mind a little better. You don't want to bow to authority of others, but the rest of the world should be.

I can pretty much guarantee you're not as objective as you think you are. This is the part where kids your age get it wrong way more often than not. It's easy to interpret one's own myopic perspective as objective.

Also, if people 'naturally give in to you', you're probably a bully. You can decide for yourself if that's who you want to be. I don't recommend it.

I'll keep tabs on this thread. Just wanted to share a few things that came to mind.

Also, thanks USMC! Appreciate the shout out :slight_smile: