Anything But What Works

Okay, I’m just gonna chime in with my 2 cents.

Hindsight being 20/20, getting big is simple.

Foresight, not so so much.

I mean, my dad and uncles are all big dudes. But I had no idea how they got that way. The way my family always talked I assumed they were genetically jacked. I never bothered to ask them about training. I never saw them training. All I knew is that they did a lot of running in the army. I didn’t think that they trained outside of that.
I stumbled upon the stronglifts site. I thought Mehdi sounded pretty intelligent and knew what he was talking about. So I followed his program. I got good results, kept on reading the stuff he was writing, learnt about olympic lifting and then found a coach in my area, found this site and that opened up my training and knowledge to the level it is now (still not that great).

I could have just as easily stumbled upon PT Schmuck’s fitness blog, thought he sounded intelligent and knew what he was talking about and spun my wheels for 3 years doing senseless shit because I didn’t know any better.

And therein lies the problem. A lot of people don’t know any better. Just because you don’t go to a fancy weightlifting campus to learn about increasing lifts and putting on muscle and get a degree saying you know these things after 4 years doesn’t mean you never learnt them. A lot of stuff I learn at university is shit simple. But I still have to learn it. Lifting weights/putting on mass, just like everything else is something you have to learn.

You wouldn’t expect John Doe off the street first year physics student to know string theory, and so you can’t expect John Doe off the street brand new trainee to know all thing inherent about the gym either.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine at the gym last week. EVERY.SINGLE.FUCKING.TIME. I see him at the gym, he says, “Dude, I reaaaaly need to start a dedicated program like you…send me that 5/3/1 program.” Last time he said, “Man, I wish I could push myself like you and progress on my lifts as quickly as you do.” ummm…You can!! What the fuck?! Ironically, he spends more time in the gym than I do. He says he HAS TO workout every day just to feel like he “did something.” Intensity much???

I call them 1 plate guys. Bench, squat, deadlift, 135 every set, every workout, all year long. Thought never crossed their minds to move up. And, yes, they wear belts and use straps.

[quote]Bambi wrote:
What I’ve noticed among a few friends is that ‘everyone should do starting strength’. 3 months down the line imbalances start causing injury. [/quote]

I’m one of those guys.

I see a lot of newbies (mostly on the Craigslist fitness forum, don’t laugh too hard now). Someone will post some rediculous split. We’ll ask typically for height, weight, and 1RMs for squats, deads, bench, and press (and then have to explain what those are).

Turns out it’s some dude who’s a buck-fifty at 6’2", struggling to gain mass.

Rather than go through a convoluted training schmeil, get 'em on the basics. Do a 5x5 program. Learn what a fucking squat, dead, press, and power clean are (we figure they know what a bench is). Get to a 1.5x BW squat. Then[ make it complicated.

And if an imbalance shows up: isn’t that more or less the point? There’s a kid who’s been struggling for a couple of years to gain mass, and turns out he actually did move up from 140 to about 180. And he’s got this weird leg caving thing, one side only, during his squat. He was describing it, and we (a motly mix of gym rats such as myself, a few guys with a lot of experience and/or trainers) tried to suss it out, finally suggested he post video. Yeah, he’s got a problem. We got him to work with a local trainer on resolving it. Point being, until he actually tried doing basic lifts with a bit of resistance, he didn’t even know he had a problem.

The good thing with a 5x5, if you do it as directed is that you’re starting light and progressing slowly over time with the resistance, which is a good way to learn good form and polish it as you go.

I’m one of those guys myself. Did a lot of cardio (swimming, cycling, rowing) as a kid and over the years as an adult. Never did serious strength training until I was 38. Now at 42 I own a 500# deadlift as of last Friday, and miss the days I can’t pick up some heavy shit. It’s helped my cardio activities (mostly rowing these days) as well.

And yeah: I’ve read a boatload of shit, including T-Nation, some surprisingly good advice from the CL forums (even the trolls helped, believe it or not), Stronglifts, Rippetoe, Crossfit, YouTube, and a middlin’ library of books on training, anatomy, diet, and other topics. It’s been fun, but it’s also been something I’ve approached as hacking my body (in a tech/geek sense).

Regarding OP’s comments: sure, there are people who don’t get it. I bite my tongue most of the time, especially at the gym, or around friends/family (they know I work out, but I’m not going to bore them with the details – but all bets are off if they ask :wink: The world’s full of idiots, and we can’t save 'em all. There are a handful of serious trainees at the gyms I’ve been to, and we swap tips, comment on form and lifts, etc. So it’s all good.

I kind of feel sorry for personal trainers of the general public. They must have it the worst (lost their faith in humanity lol).

Trainee: “Oh I saw this gadget on tv that gives you a six pack, so I bought it…works really well, I can really feel it in my abs, even in my arms too…it’s really good”

Trainer: “So why are you still a lard ass then? Just do what I tell you…”

Trainee: “But I don’t want big muscles, just want to be toned”

1 week later

Trainee: “I found something else really good, you’ve got to look it up!”

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I kind of feel sorry for personal trainers of the general public. They must have it the worst (lost their faith in humanity lol).

Trainee: “Oh I saw this gadget on tv that gives you a six pack, so I bought it…works really well, I can really feel it in my abs, even in my arms too…it’s really good”

Trainer: “So why are you still a lard ass then? Just do what I tell you…”

Trainee: “But I don’t want big muscles, just want to be toned”

1 week later

Trainee: “I found something else really good, you’ve got to look it up!”[/quote]

Amen, Amen, and again I say Amen

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
What will allow me to get from point A to point B while doing as little work as possible seems to be the prevailing attitude among people my age. [/quote]

This is, has always been, will always be and should always be the prevailing attitude of humanity. It’s at the root of every labour saving device we have invented and most of our ingenious ideas. Why are you bashing that :(((( ?

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I kind of feel sorry for personal trainers of the general public. They must have it the worst (lost their faith in humanity lol).

Trainee: “Oh I saw this gadget on tv that gives you a six pack, so I bought it…works really well, I can really feel it in my abs, even in my arms too…it’s really good”

Trainer: “So why are you still a lard ass then? Just do what I tell you…”

Trainee: “But I don’t want big muscles, just want to be toned”

1 week later

Trainee: “I found something else really good, you’ve got to look it up!”[/quote]
As with all things, ignorance stems from lack of knowledge or lack of understanding of said knowledge.

Most people are just woefully ignorant… If they were more educated like the majority of people on this site, there would be no issue.

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Most people nowadays like the quick fix. What will allow me to get from point A to point B while doing as little work as possible seems to be the prevailing attitude among people my age. I see very few that still hit the big exercises hard or really put in the work necessary to get the results they desire.

The most annoying thing to me is when people will literally say that they want their body to look a certain way or want to lift a certain amount of weight but don’t want to do the work to get there, or don’t want to work as hard as is necessary.

What ever happened to hard work? [/quote]

A little off topic but I saw the commendation you got from John Meadows

www.mountaindogdiet.com/client.php

Well done. Do you still follow his stuff yeah?

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
What will allow me to get from point A to point B while doing as little work as possible seems to be the prevailing attitude among people my age. [/quote]

This is, has always been, will always be and should always be the prevailing attitude of humanity. It’s at the root of every labour saving device we have invented and most of our ingenious ideas. Why are you bashing that :(((( ?[/quote]

[quote]stevo_ wrote:
Far more people are trying and failing i guess than in previous years so maybe the ratio has gone down in any one given gym, but the sheer number of people big lean and strong now vs previous generations is astronomically larger.[/quote]

At least we still have some balanced minded people in this thread.

Nothing like suppressing innovation. We accept changes in nutrition but want to stick to same same training ideology. Yes they work but how can it be improved?..Just ask kodak how that ideology worked out for them.

Numbers don’t lie - There is a steady trend that each generation is becoming bigger than the previous generation. We have a larger population of bigger and leaner guys now than we ever did, yet still people question the dedication of this generation.

[quote]angus_beef wrote:

Numbers don’t lie - There is a steady trend that each generation is becoming bigger than the previous generation. We have a larger population of bigger and leaner guys now than we ever did, yet still people question the dedication of this generation.
[/quote]

Although I do agree with your opinion on innovation, which numbers are we looking at? Raw numbers or percentages?

Both.

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Both.[/quote]

Raw numbers wise, it would make sense that the number of dedicated individuals in the weight room has increased, but percentage wise, I doubt there is any real growth.

Percentage wise as part of the gym population or as part of the general population?

[quote]k-dingo wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
What I’ve noticed among a few friends is that ‘everyone should do starting strength’. 3 months down the line imbalances start causing injury. [/quote]

I’m one of those guys.

I see a lot of newbies (mostly on the Craigslist fitness forum, don’t laugh too hard now). Someone will post some rediculous split. We’ll ask typically for height, weight, and 1RMs for squats, deads, bench, and press (and then have to explain what those are).

Turns out it’s some dude who’s a buck-fifty at 6’2", struggling to gain mass.

Rather than go through a convoluted training schmeil, get 'em on the basics. Do a 5x5 program. Learn what a fucking squat, dead, press, and power clean are (we figure they know what a bench is). Get to a 1.5x BW squat. Then[ make it complicated.

And if an imbalance shows up: isn’t that more or less the point? There’s a kid who’s been struggling for a couple of years to gain mass, and turns out he actually did move up from 140 to about 180. And he’s got this weird leg caving thing, one side only, during his squat. He was describing it, and we (a motly mix of gym rats such as myself, a few guys with a lot of experience and/or trainers) tried to suss it out, finally suggested he post video. Yeah, he’s got a problem. We got him to work with a local trainer on resolving it. Point being, until he actually tried doing basic lifts with a bit of resistance, he didn’t even know he had a problem.

The good thing with a 5x5, if you do it as directed is that you’re starting light and progressing slowly over time with the resistance, which is a good way to learn good form and polish it as you go.

I’m one of those guys myself. Did a lot of cardio (swimming, cycling, rowing) as a kid and over the years as an adult. Never did serious strength training until I was 38. Now at 42 I own a 500# deadlift as of last Friday, and miss the days I can’t pick up some heavy shit. It’s helped my cardio activities (mostly rowing these days) as well.

And yeah: I’ve read a boatload of shit, including T-Nation, some surprisingly good advice from the CL forums (even the trolls helped, believe it or not), Stronglifts, Rippetoe, Crossfit, YouTube, and a middlin’ library of books on training, anatomy, diet, and other topics. It’s been fun, but it’s also been something I’ve approached as hacking my body (in a tech/geek sense).

Regarding OP’s comments: sure, there are people who don’t get it. I bite my tongue most of the time, especially at the gym, or around friends/family (they know I work out, but I’m not going to bore them with the details – but all bets are off if they ask :wink: The world’s full of idiots, and we can’t save 'em all. There are a handful of serious trainees at the gyms I’ve been to, and we swap tips, comment on form and lifts, etc. So it’s all good.
[/quote]

I agree with you a 5x5 split with the most basic movements is better than the chest/biceps/abs crew. I think the way it is USED (on some forums, as an internet meme) is tbh wrong. C_C on these forums put out a much more balanced beginner routine template and ideas that I’ve been following and making great progress on.

And congrats on the 500 deadlift. Just missed that yesterday I’ll be catching you soon.

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Percentage wise as part of the gym population or as part of the general population?[/quote]

Both. With the general population, it probably has not increased or decreased at all. With the gym population, it has probably decreased because so many people are now just using cardio machines and weight machines for those easy workouts. It might seem like the dedicated percentage has increased, but in face, it seems that most of the people are migrating away to the cardio equipment. I see it at my gym. There are quite a few big guys there that I see every now and then, and I always think that there are more of them nowadays. However, I just look over to the treadmills and stairclimbers and notice that around 2/3 of the people in the gym (at least) are always over there.

Thanks lanky : )

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:
Most people nowadays like the quick fix. What will allow me to get from point A to point B while doing as little work as possible seems to be the prevailing attitude among people my age. I see very few that still hit the big exercises hard or really put in the work necessary to get the results they desire.

The most annoying thing to me is when people will literally say that they want their body to look a certain way or want to lift a certain amount of weight but don’t want to do the work to get there, or don’t want to work as hard as is necessary.

What ever happened to hard work? [/quote]

A little off topic but I saw the commendation you got from John Meadows

www.mountaindogdiet.com/client.php

Well done. Do you still follow his stuff yeah?[/quote]

Haha, it’s cool man.

Ya, I do implement a good deal of his principles into my own template that I have built around my goals. I really love his style of training, different and very effective.

[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I don’t know whether it’s just me or what, but has anyone else noticed the trend these days? Has it not gotten worse?

i.e. The trend for people to do anything but the basics (e.g. getting stronger, following standard routines etc). There seems to be a really bad lack of attention span in newer trainees. People no longer want to get a thrill from beating PR’s in the gym, and want to change everything all the time (as if somehow that will give them better results). Most would rather follow something that sounds complicated or has you changing things all the time.

It’s like people these days need to be spoon fed sometimes, and don’t learn by their own experience/those of others. Just looking around at all the critique my routine threads makes you realise how bad the problem is getting lol

Am I just imagining this or what?[/quote]

Perhaps not imagining this but it is true that more threads nowadays in BB Training end up being questions that can be Googled or searched before on this very site. It used to be the Beginners section filled with similar questions. Maybe it’s a trend, maybe it’s also that the ones on this site making progress aren’t really keen on starting new threads. I dip into TCA more often now to re-read old threads to get more information (the roundtable stuff etc). The lifters posting on the training logs are the ones to watch - consistent posts and development, you really get the feeling these people will go somewhere - not only in lifting but in their careers and life.

I have to agree on this “quick fix” solution that many new lifters look to, it’s no different from the rest of life, a quick fix for food, a quick fix in work, to be more efficient - all to save time and money - which they don’t know how to use when they have more money and more time.

If you read enough of the old threads here I realised that much of the material is repeated which leads me to believe that enough people with results are doing it then its not anecdotal it’s a fact of life. This really isn’t a passion of convenience, you can be as efficient as you like but can’t skip the basics, the macros, the calories, the compounds etc.

The site doesn’t feel the same anymore. Sorry if that read like a rant.

[quote]Bambi wrote:
I agree with you a 5x5 split with the most basic movements is better than the chest/biceps/abs crew. I think the way it is USED (on some forums, as an internet meme) is tbh wrong. C_C on these forums put out a much more balanced beginner routine template and ideas that I’ve been following and making great progress on.

And congrats on the 500 deadlift. Just missed that yesterday I’ll be catching you soon.[/quote]
Out of interest, do you have a link to that beginners’ thing by CC?

My take on the “quick fix” mentality is that actually it doesn’t come down to that; it comes down to smart or dumb. I like to think I have found the “smart quick fixes”; my goals are to get bigger and stronger and the fastest way of doing that is by consistently eating lots and lifting progressively heavier weights.

I want my meals to be convenient so I have come up with a few quick fix recipes that take no more than 20 minutes and fit all my nutritional goals.

Dumb quick fixes are things like the ab machines and all that bollocks, but I don’t necessarily condemn the mere idea of wanting the most efficient way of doing something. They’re dumb because people don’t realise that the fastest way of doing something really well is often the hardest, but is also often much more simple than the ridiculous alternatives people try.