T Nation

Anyone Tried HP Mass Program w/ Martial Arts?

Combat
#1

Hi.
Really love coach Thibs’s work! I’ve been following him since the Black Book of Training Secrets days (although i admit i still have to pay for this book and i WILL buy it officially ASAP when i start getting money on my own!!! – i might get banned for revealing this, but oh well)

My question now is regardless the “Look like a Bodybuilder - Perform like an athlete” principles embedded in HP Mass program.
I really LOVE the Neural Ramping and “As fast as humanly possible” stuff. It really blows my performance and it just feels great.

Problem is the main sport i train for CURRENTLY is boxing. I ain’t gonna be a pro-champion-boxer-prodigy.
I’m good. Every coach likes me, but i do not intent to destroy my head for glory (cuz i already have it :wink: )
but I FUCKIN* TRAIN HARDER THAN THE PROS everywhere i go. I’ve been in different martial arts during the years and i’ve never settled for less than to be better than the best! :wink:

My priorities might change for another sake, but for now i want to know:
Is there someone using this program template (obviously re-modeled) or at least the new Thibs principles WITH COMBINATION OF HIS COMBAT SPORT?

I’ve been thinking that given i want to put some size, strength and play basketball at school and want to go 2/3 times a week to boxing (and OWN everyone’s ass, f*ck yea!!)… i might just strip down some total reps/volume of the pushing zone.
And really do enough back training each week, because well - we have to balance this shit.

Anyone? :slight_smile:

#2

[quote]Mitizaro wrote:
My priorities might change for another sake, but for now i want to know:
Is there someone using this program template (obviously re-modeled) or at least the new Thibs principles WITH COMBINATION OF HIS COMBAT SPORT?
…
Anyone? :)[/quote]

Nope, not me. Two things you might want to consider though:

  • if you train really hard and have THREE things you’re focusing on, recovery might become an issue. Note that I say ‘might’. You’ll see if it works.
  • three sports = 10+ sessions a week - you’ll need an epic shitload of calories to gain any weight. the less you train, the less food you need to do this.
#3

“but I FUCKIN* TRAIN HARDER THAN THE PROS everywhere i go. I’ve been in different martial arts during the years and i’ve never settled for less than to be better than the best! ;)”

If you are better than the best, I would think about fighting professional…

“I’ve been thinking that given i want to put some size, strength and play basketball at school and want to go 2/3 times a week to boxing (and OWN everyone’s ass, f*ck yea!”

If you wish to OWN everyones ass, I would advise you make fighting your number one priority, especially weapons and tactics. Basketball and weight training would be a mental break from your serious training.

#4

I have no idea what program OP is talking about, but it does sound right off the bat like he’s pursuing too many goals at once. Might be better to choose one and stick with it.

#5

I actually ran a couple of cycles of HP Mass, here are my thoughts:

There is a huge imbalance of pressing vs pulling in HP mass. That makes the actual template a poor choice for a boxer or striker (since their sport places them in a protracted shoulder position and is much more heavily pressing action than pulling action). The recovery from the program also pretty much requires designer supplements from my experience (but if you can afford them then you will probably notice some good gains in terms of work capacity), especially if you are training your combat sport intensely.

The neural charge workouts are a great addition to any program

I like the emphasis on power, but I would suggest cycling this type of low rep maximal effort training with some high rep lactic acid threshold type resistance training so you don’t become too accustomed to short duration efforts.

Forget about what CT says about static stretching, DO IT, often. Especially the chest and shoulders are going to need lots of stretching with this program.

Good luck.

#6

I’ve dione the HPMASS program along with my martial arts and I train with extremely high volume; first off the actuall program will not do much in terms of transferring to your fighting prowess and ability, in fact weight lifting in general doesn’t transfer over very well for striking arts…

The only reason I did it and continue to weightlift is because I love doing it and want to look good is all, if you do the program though you will need the supplementation, the volume and style of training combined with your combat training is going to lead you into an overtrained state, your better off doing something else if you don’t have the supplementation your recovery will not facilitate much gains at all.

#7

Fuck, i was thinking it could be just like that.
Yea i know that too much pushing will be a hindrance, that’s why i thought about “F*ck the actuall template, throw some changes!”.

I really love the style of reps. It just FEELS AWESOME.
And is much better sport-wise than grinding maxes.

Boxing is my love. But for what i intent to work, i’d need a lot of functional, inspirational strength, good shape and looots of knowledge and experience with weights.

Since boxing wouldn’t bring my food to the table, and i won’t help people nor my dreams by being champion, it most likely will come in second. Which sux cuz boxing really makes you crooked and disbalanced…
But, d@mn - i LOVE this shit, i LOVE getting hit hard (the only times when i’ve feared getting hit by someone are when i got blank screen from a hit while i took it STANDING – but i’d love to train and f*ck his ass!! No easy way out, son!)

I like looking good, although i certianly don’t need to personally. I mean i don’t count on it in ANY way (even with girls it’s opposite - i’m and asshole and and love myself no matter how i look)
– But i will HAVE to be looking well for my job and passion. To be inspiration at least.

So HP Mass seemed like an very easy (yes… sux thinking about this sissy-assumption) and SUITABLE approach to getting more ripped while putting on awesome performance and with a twist of the template - support for jumping and boxing.

Back to square one. Guess i will have to get REALLY clear on what i want.
But one is for sure. I LOVE busting it with power, baby! :slight_smile:

P.S - I will post pics soon - i ain’t skinny bastard, just the opposite - i’d really benefit some cutting of fat. But more MUSCLE would actually be good as well (if i can rip-open heads with it ;))

#8

P.S. 2 - Can you guys, that say you’ve tried the HP Mass + Combat sport: Tell me in details what kind of martial art you train and how often, and since when, etc. ?? :slight_smile:

I really like the idea of the power amping - i’ve always trained pyramid wise in the past and got so many results (but using 5x5 or 6-7x3 ideas).

#9

I trained in jeet kune do just as I mentioned in the other thread towards the end… I train ALOT though five days in the gym when I was doing the HPMASS program and bought the sled for leg work… I then trained my martial arts 5 days a week practicing at least a thousand punches and kicks daily, on top of additional stuff that applied to my martial arts…

I burned out fast made strength gains but never gained weight, i didn’t advance nearly as much as I could have and generally just went way over board… You have to take into account what you want and stick to that, you can’t go all out in your weightlifting and you martial arts training at the same time or you will burn out… I was on indigo, Anaconda, Surge, and MAG-10 as well as using FINiBARs…

Even using high end supplementation and a solid diet and sleep with minimal stress it was still damn bloody hard to keep with… If you do HPMASS and want gains AND do the boxing you will need to either A lower the volume of one of the activities or B get in a shit ton of food, sleep, recovery and solid supplementation to keep up with the workouts… I know how It wanting to hit the weights hard and get your martial arts training in but trust me if you over do it you will just end up doing more harm for both then good.

#10

I hear you man… although in the past of my research i’ve always been on the idea that at LEAST most of the JKD gyms are simply b*llshit (no offence, please!).
Simply it is in most cases showing off, but depends on where you train (just like with every martial art).

Last night i made awesome max-test-workout (for the sake of HP Mass), but today i feel a slight tingling in my lower back on the right (it’s the muscle, not the spine)… so i’m missing today’s boxing (priorities first, no matter how much in pain my heart is atm).

At the VERY least i might USE the principles behind HP Mass… but i bet CT really made the whole scheme TOGETHER for the big work to happen. Still i can’t ignore some of his radical knowledge about the grinding-reps and sports performance!

#11

I train in a Reality Martial Art (RMA) called Lysak’s S.E.N.T.O. Method which includes everything from striking (boxing/kickboxing), grappling (wrestling, BJJ, JJJ, small joint locks), weapons (conventional and improvised), and “street effective” tactics (biting, eye attacks, nerve attacks, and body handles). At the time I was doing HP Mass I was teaching 3 times a week, training with my instructor 1-2 times a week and of course doing skill work 5+ days a week on my own.

If I were you and wanted to glean the beneficial parts of CT’s approach/program for a block of training I would:

  1. use his maximal force ramping style and rep scheme for my main movements (but unlike his program I would pick only one upper body pressing and one lower body pressing exercise per workout)

  2. include neural charge workouts throughout the week

  3. include a power based movement prior to my main movements to fully excite/activate my neuromuscular system

  4. include some eccentric less work (namely sled dragging) into my weekly routine to help build up extra volume/work capacity without adding a lot of extra recovery demands

  5. get in some quality peri-workout nutrition to allow me to really push it in the gym and also recover for my skill work later on (doesn’t have to be the extract protocol but you want some fast digesting/high glycemic index carbs and some fast absorbing protein)

Hope this helps.

#12

Damn…
…boxing really gets far behind my primary goal, which involves HEAVILY the strength, mass, leaneness, and functional gains i INTENT to get! :slight_smile:

As i tried today more of Coach Thibs’s ideas on the TECHNIQUE of the exercises…
…i just convinced myself why and how much i love this guy!
Real fan, but also i don’t like to follow anyone blindly (and worship his as a deity)

So… for now i REALLY want to give a shot to HP Mass (maybe with only 1-2 boxing a week with less emphasis on it).

5/3/1 is the other option but i really… my whole identity/beingness prefers CT over EliteFTS style. I mean i don’t even like the powerlifting bench-pressing style… let alone do grinding reps.
Not saying anything against EliteFTS, since i’m guilty of not having finished the really deep research on their bench-press-ideology, but… i HAVE applied Dave Tate’s instructional video that was posted in an article here on “The 6 weeks Bench Press cure” or something like that.

I might find a way to get some quality BCAA and really quality fast-carbs for pre- and peri- workout nutrition. But i certianly can’t stand the Anaconda $ challange (at least not yet).

#13

Other’s mileage may vary, but I would strongly caution against CT’s benching style that he described with that workout. I had never had any shoulder or neck pain while benching with retracted and depressed scapulae (like power lifters or even bodybuilders like Dante Trudel or Ronnie Coleman advise). In fact, I ran the first cycle of HP Mass trouble free benching in this fashion, and after only maybe half of my second cycle I had to take a back off week and actually retract myself to bench this way (and honestly it still doesn’t feel 100% right) from following that advice. There is a reason that hundreds if not thousands of power lifters and high level bodybuilders bench the way they do.

My theory is that:

  1. most people’s upper traps are disproportionately strong compared to their middle and lower traps, so benching with the scraps shrugged results in a short term apparent increase in strength (though personally I didn’t notice much of anything), but long term only seeks to exacerbate the problem and cause further imbalance. Perhaps if your mid/lower traps were equal or disproportionately strong compared to your upper traps it might not be an issue, but that’s not a lot of people

  2. part of the reason you depress the scraps is to create a stable shoulder joint, elevating them destabilizes them

But do what you want, apparently some people like it (or at least claimed they did in response to the article about it).

#14

5/3/1

#15

5/3/1 as well I find it works much better for recovery and in junction with fighting… Although obviously lifting in general is not needed for it…

#16

I hear you folks.
Yea the stuff about mid/low - high traps is probably true in me because i’ve always had problems in the last portion of a pull-up (really bringing/touching the bar to the nipples/chest area)

CT is great IMO, but there’s something i REALLY hated about HP Mass. The Neural Charge workouts. It just DOESN’T SEEM RIGHT for your body to give you signals of rest… … and you just make it “high” on neurotransmitters and continue.

My whole philosophy of training is based about a certian Zen principle - that pain/suffering/exhaustion and all of the internal sensory and mental/emotional experiences are… NOT “you” in a sense that it is possible to continue while facing them.

DO you honestly think that in a boxing gym or in a Kyokushinkai Dojo they will do some neural charge workouts and… DEPEND on their Nervious system to be healed in order to continue fighting?
No, they’d be like: “Fuck that, LET’S MOVE ON, B*TCHES!! TIME TO HIT SOME HURTING BOMBS!!”

So… i want program that requires YOUR OWN FIST AND LEGS to build the power, not “mega doses of MAG-10”.
Nothing wrong with the product… unless you count on it… and ESCPECIALLY when you DON’T have it – it shouldn’t be the end of the world for a lifter. My HEART is my Anaconda… my LEGS are my “Metabolic Drive”… my hands give me the “Alpha Male” feeling and my head will explode with “Brain Candies”… the bed is my recovery and a girl is my epiphany while f*cking her in the ass causing her screams.
THAT’S my philosophy! :slight_smile:

And just like there’s Sun and Moon, there’s also contraction and expansion - trying and NOT trying… work and rest.
So if i’m really blasted… i CAN continue (talking about the so called nervous system sluggish-ness) because - ding-ding-ding - WIllpower can do it all. But at what COST? If it really is counter-productive for the body then it’s time to give it rest and enjoy some girls or w/e.

Still… i simply CAN’T ignore CT’s idea on the Neural Ramping method of training. My muscles ARE very explosive in the basketball court after this, as OPPOSED to the heavy lifting style close to 1RM, that i feel like a robot/sluggish

Maybe i’ll just invent the next Generation “Matrix POWER program”. :wink:

#17

Actually the idea behind the neural charge workouts is not only to prime you for the next day but to leave you more so in a better anabolic state during rest and recovery… The workouts aren’t enough to create additional stress or fatigue but help to keep the body optimized and in that state while simatonously preparing you better for the next days workouts…

I really enjoy doing CTs workouts but it’s just too much stress on my body while doing martial arts that’s why I switched over to the 5/3/1 method… Nothing will make you more powerful and explosive etc… For your martial arts better then doing your martial arts, if you like to lift and enjoy it great more power to you it’s why I still do it as well… However just keep in mind it really doesn’t transfer much to striking arts maybe a tad more to grappling though.

#18

IMO Coach Thibs is someone with many years of experience.

I love his stuff. Today i just re-showed myself that grinding max forces don’t serve well in the “sports field”. Sucked at volley because i not only i acted pussily, but i wasn’t accustomed to this particular “speed” of explosive-start or state of my muscles right now. So i ended up behaving like i can destroy the ball across the volley net with one timing… but my muscles didn’t really supported that and i couldn’t do it properly.

So yea love his work. As i see my end goals right now i’d REALLY need to amp up my progress as fast as humanly possible.
His back is too negleted IMO and the bodybuilding type of stuff may hinder my sports performance.

Still with some tweaks i could do it… but i’d really need to stack up on the Rice Oligodextrine (greetings Biotest’s Surge Workout Fuel and Finnibars) and the BCAAs ;)!

Soon i’d add some personal photoes of myself in the proper category of the forum so if possible to get some opinion on posture and general analysis.

THANK YOU GUYS FOR THE RESPONSES, YOU WERE SIMPLY AWESOME!
That’s why (because of people like you) is that i love the world!! :wink:

#19

you seem like a bunny on crack =) i hope you enjoy your training and trip.

#20

[quote]cstratton2 wrote:
5/3/1 as well I find it works much better for recovery and in junction with fighting… Although obviously lifting in general is not needed for it… [/quote]

The fact that you can adjust the assistance work volume depending on what you’re doing in the gym is what makes 5/3/1 golden to me.

I could never recover from the volume I do if I wasn’t doing a program where once in a while, I could hit three three-rep sets and call it a day.