Anyone Seen Zeitgeist?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:
Just like what was said to Neo by Morpheus in the Matrix, there are those in the system who are so dependent on it, indoctrinated into it, that they would fight to defend it. The sheep/cattle become their own shepherds/cowherds.

The young guys living in basements SHOULD be saying fuck certain aspects of organized religion, government, the banking/money system and authority. People SHOULD be questioning the status quo. We are playing by the rules of someone else’s game. The economic system the world runs by has become so convoluted, complex and mystified that nobody can understand it.

Really, I think it runs on just a few simple principles that have been shrouded in all that mumbo-jumbo, so whatever explanation someone can come up with for an event, can easily be countered by an equally plausible argument from the same area of reasoning. That way, the truth stays buried beneath meaningless quibbling.[/quote]

You make some good points, and thanks for not hurling insults.

You know, I used to be one of those 15 year olds in my moms basement. I used to think that way, “fuck this fuck that, fuck authortiy, fuck the government…etc…” even though I knew NOTHING about what I was so vehemently against. I mean, I used to go “man fuck the president, he is really fucking shit up”, but I didn’t even know WHO the president was, or WHAT it was that he was doing that was “fucking everything up”.

I used to sit there and say, “man fuck the police, we don’t need them”, but I remember from a very young age having to depend on the police to keep me safe from my own father. I remember one police man in particular who intervened when I almost threw myself off of a freeway overpass. He literally changed my life, so I feel like I owe the police a at least a little respect.

I used to say, “man, fuck the military all they do is kill innocent women and children”, until I joined the Army, and learned about the history of the military, and what service members have sacrificed over the years to keep this country free, and protect my right to say stupid shit about the very same people who uphold that right.

Look, I am not saying that ecerything is peachy keen and perfect. I am saying that it is very irresponsible to lie and fabricate history to serve an obvious and blatant agenda. The makers of this film know damn well that there are going legions of ignorant, impressionable, and angry young boys that will view this film and be indocrinated into beliving that everyone is out to get them.

I don’t think that America needs a “Che Guevara” revolution. It is nice to believe that the world, and world economics is this sinister and evil system run by super wealthy, racist, villianous overlords who want total control over everything and everyone. I have watched all those movies, and read all those books too. People love to think that there is this “good vs evil” war of attrition, where every young American is the “Luke Skywalker” of his generation fighting this evil “Darth Vader” corporate empire, but life is just not like it is in the movies. Most adults know this.

22

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
meangenes wrote:
Skaz, what “elitist attitude that athiests have over other people”? About other people? The control over the people? Not an attack, just an attempt to understand you fully.

From what I have experienced with atheists, many of them truly believe that they are smarter, more civilized, and somehow “better” than people who believe in a religion, or a god. By talking to them I get the impression that since they don’t believe in a “silly invisible man in the sky” this means that they have it all figured out.

This movie highlights this by reducing religion to “silly sun worship” and “tracking of the stars”.

Atheists are intensly condescending people, just like vegans. It is an elitist attitude, where people who believe in religion, or eat meat, are morally and intellecutaly inferior to those who don’t. That is elitism in my book.

I don’t belive in any religion, I guess you could call me an atheist, but I will NEVER think that someone is stupid, or naive, or uncivilized, or ignorant because they believe in something that I don’t. I HATE condescending people and elitism. It makes people ugly.[/quote]

That’s funny, because I HATE prejudice people.

23

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

From what I have experienced with atheists, many of them truly believe that they are smarter, more civilized, and somehow “better” than people who believe in a religion, or a god. By talking to them I get the impression that since they don’t believe in a “silly invisible man in the sky” this means that they have it all figured out.

This movie highlights this by reducing religion to “silly sun worship” and “tracking of the stars”.

Atheists are intensly [/quote]intensely[quote] condescending people, just like vegans. It is an elitist attitude, where people who believe in religion, or eat meat, are morally and intellecutaly [/quote]intellectually[quote] inferior to those who don’t. That is elitism in my book.[/quote]

Yes there are atheists that are like that, but there are extremists of all groups. Apparently you’ve somehow met all of the minority of atheists whom are all elitist. In the population of atheists I’ve came into contact with, not many of them were anything remotely elitist.

In fact many of them just wanted people not to follow religion so blindly and to think for themselves a little. I know you stated that you don’t like condescending people etc. etc. but I get a patronizing feel from your posts. Intentional or coincidental?

Edit: Never mind, most recent post clarifies overall tone for me.

P.S. I’m just messing around the spelling corrections, not actually patronizing you, just messing around.

24

[quote]meangenes wrote:
Jews are also believed to be the direct decedents of the the Israelites, who are believed to be the original people of god. Because they were the first known monotheist. [/quote]

Two points;

People converting to Judaism aren’t automagically transformed into “the direct decedents of the the Israelites” [sic].

Why do you say “believed to be” (twice)? Did any monotheist ever challenge that Jews were first?

Jesus was Jewish but since the Christians believe Jesus to be a divine being, they reject Judaism.

Now what is that supposed to mean? Are you an anti-Semite?

The cause is a little hard to pinpoint. Every minority has been persecuted to some extent over the ages. What made the fate of the Jews museum material is probably the fact that they were mostly involved in usury and other professions making a living off of other people’s troubles (think modern lawyers).

Not quite. The conflict isn’t religious in essence.

You point still stands; Most Palestinians and Israelis don’t get along.

Don’t bother. It’s hardly average, and the antisemitism was all in your mind.

25

Actually the first monotheist religion we know about was in Egypt. There may be evidence that portions of it exist within Judaism. In fact most of the 10 commandments, (or 10 sayings), are actually found within the Egyptian book of the dead.

One interesting difference between Judaism and Christianity, and even Islam, is that they do not actively recruit members to join their religion. In fact if you are not born into the religion, you are supposed to earn your way in.

Jesus’ divinity was hotly debated shortly after the forming of the church. The divinity crowd won, obviously.

As far as atheism, most of the vocal atheists piss me off. They actually go out and proselytize for atheism, push their beliefs on others, try to suppress nonconforming beliefs, and walk around completely oblivious of their own hypocrisy.

Recently I was watching the local news, and they interviewed an atheist who actually said, “Being an atheist means you are pro choice.” What?!

I am still convinced that many of these supposed atheists are actually people who got God and Santa mixed up, and didn’t get that pony they prayed for, and are now just pissed off at God.

Being an atheist is a personal decision, similar to any other religion, and if a person is truly healthy with their decision, they don’t need to convince others.

26

[quote]skaz05 wrote:

People love to think that there is this “good vs evil” war of attrition, where every young American is the “Luke Skywalker” of his generation fighting this evil “Darth Vader” corporate empire, but life is just not like it is in the movies. Most adults know this.[/quote]

Ironic, because I’ve thought lately that America is a lot like Annakin Skywalker.

Young and bold, powerful beyond his own understanding, absolutely convinced of his own rightness, and bitterly resentful of his elders, whom he perceives don’t give him the respect he deserves.

And, of course, one step away from the Dark Side.

27

[quote]The Mage wrote:
I am still convinced that many of these supposed atheists are actually people who got God and Santa mixed up, and didn’t get that pony they prayed for, and are now just pissed off at God.[/quote]

Dyslexic Satan worshippers worship Santa.

28

Saw it. Ehh…except for the 9/11 conspiracy stuff it was decent. I don’t know why they felt the need to talk about Religion/9-11/Federal Reserve all in one movie but it makes for a good discussion nonetheless – if you like that sort of thing.

29

It was alright. They should have delved more deeply into the mistranslations in the bible instead of trying to show Christ as a zodiac figure. The mistranslations regarding Christ’s mother, his birth, his “miracles”, and so on and so forth is more interesting. They should have also just referenced the Sumerian Epic of Creation to discredit most of the bible in a flash.

And of course, everyone hates 9/11 conspiracy theories. Unfortunately, the government’s story still doesn’t add up and it never did. Oh well, in 50 years when the truth surfaces no one will care. Just like when the declassified documents came about showing Roosevelts determination to become involved in WW2 or that the Gulf of Tonkin was one big fabricated lie, no big deal! No one will care that Bush and Co bombed the towers in 50 years and they know it.

“On November 25, 1941 Japan’s Admiral Yamamoto sent a radio message to the group of Japanese warships that would attack Pearl Harbor on December 7. Newly released naval records prove that from November 17 to 25 the United States Navy intercepted eighty-three messages that Yamamoto sent to his carriers. Part of the November 25 message read: …the task force, keeping its movements strictly secret and maintaining close guard against submarines and aircraft, shall advance into Hawaiian waters, and upon the very opening of hostilities shall attack the main force of the United States fleet in Hawaii and deal it a mortal blow…”

9/11 was an inside job. You’re dumb as hell if you think otherwise.

30

Mee 2 stoopit, mee 2 dum to theenk 4 meeself. me like thingies dat go boom. me like big boobees an beerz. me like karz dat go fast. hyuck hyuck hycuk, me vote 4 boosh 2 timez

Me dum azzzz hell

31

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:9/11 was an inside job. You’re dumb as hell if you think otherwise.

Mee 2 stoopit, mee 2 dum to theenk 4 meeself. me like thingies dat go boom. me like big boobees an beerz. me like karz dat go fast. hyuck hyuck hycuk, me vote 4 boosh 2 timez

Me dum azzzz hell[/quote]

That’s a disturbingly accurate portrayl of Bush supporters. Spot on!

These vile creatures can usually be identified by their incomprehensible sentence structure and poor grammar accompanied by terrorist rhetoric. They’re often found in packs surrounding a metal object filled with a cheap beverage made from hops while cheering on retards driving around a circle for hours at a time-a mind numbing experience falsely labeled as a sport. They’re often ignorant, hostile, and extremely intolerant. Avoid this primitive and devolved species at all costs.

32

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
They should have also just referenced the Sumerian Epic of Creation to discredit most of the bible in a flash.
[/quote]

Sumerian Epic of Creation was nothing like the Creation in the Bible. Though some of the tales may be alike, the Summerian creation was about gods battling one another. The Bible creation was a series of commands.

The Summerian Gilgamesh myth included a first person tale of Noah and the Ark, which probably predated the Bible story.

Which other stories were similar, do you know?

33

Well I think the first 6 tablets tell the story of the creation of our solar system, as the “gods” really referring to the planets. The 7th tablet in the Epic glorifies the creation(6 days of creation, 7th day God rests).

And as you said the Epic of Gilgamesh obviously predated the Bible story, by thousands of years.

I think a lot of the Sumerian tales were stolen and spun to create much of the Biblical stories. Such as the sibling rivalry of Enlil and Enkil can account for the seemingly schizophrenic god of the Torah and the New Testament.

34

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
I think a lot of the Sumerian tales were stolen and spun to create much of the Biblical stories. Such as the sibling rivalry of Enlil and Enkil can account for the seemingly schizophrenic god of the Torah and the New Testament.[/quote]

Yes, that could be true. After all, the Jews were held captive in Babylon and worshipped many of their gods at one time, according to the Bible.

Schizophrenic god? Yes, how very true.

35

Yeah the Hebrews compiled the OT while in captivity around 600BC. They applied the one god concept back to the beginning of time to all their ancestral accounts, which were all based on old notions of the plurality of Gods.

36

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Yeah the Hebrews compiled the OT while in captivity around 600BC. They applied the one god concept back to the beginning of time to all their ancestral accounts, which were all based on old notions of the plurality of Gods. [/quote]

If only it were that simple. Try reading this book:

Even in this, scholarship beats conjecture.

37

How about you give me a brief summary instead of a link to purchase it, because I’m not going to buy it.

38

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
How about you give me a brief summary instead of a link to purchase it, because I’m not going to buy it.[/quote]

OK. How about this summary, about the “documentary hypothesis,” from just a little farther down the web page:

[i]Friedman contends the books are historical accounts recorded by scribes, probably court priests, of their respective kingdoms. Their style differences allow him to pin letter designations for identification - the now well-known E, J, D and P. The first two refer to how the deity was identified. The “D” is for “Deuteronomist”, identified by stylistic traits, while the “P” relates to priestly genealogies. Friedman uses various highlighting techniques to demonstrate variances in the text style or content. This rather hotch-potch arrangement was later organised into the single volume by the “Redactor” [the “E” for “Editor” having already been assigned.

Setting his thesis within a well-defined chronology, Friedman shows how the various authors had previously material to draw on producing their own accounts. With no possibility of retrieving the sequence, we have only the results passed down to us. This situation explains many of the inconsistencies, since Judaic scribes had different sources than those in Israel. They also, apparently, had different agendas to follow. Almost from the beginning, for example, there are differences in the roles of Moses and Aaron. Friedman lists other variations with their probable origins. [/i]

While you may be correct, and the Redactor may have been busy in the 6th C. BC, the skeins of narrative may date back to 1200 BC. For anyone who has an interest in this type of religious thought, the book is well worth reading. After all, it helps explain the origins of a work of literature that served civilization for more than two millenia.

[And any of this has more authenticity than "Zeitgeist’]

39

Great movie…

Sorry for reviving a few months old thread, but I feel posting here is better then opening a new one.

This movie hasn’t sparked shit in me, considering any sufficiently educated person can see the parallels between what was presented and what is actually happening. For all of you out there who saw this documentary and understand its truths, I would be honored to add you to my friends list.

40

I thought it was great too. The religion stuff was particularly interesting to me. I am really interested to know what religious people think of that section of the movie. As far as 9/11 goes:The only thing i hear from people who beleive it was done like the government says it was is, “the government told us that is what happened so that is what happened” that is all you guys got, sorry. I for one would love to hear what the government says about building 7.