T Nation

Anyone Seen Zeitgeist?

 I recently saw a new online movie/documentary called Zeitgeist, now I am not one to blindly believe in everything I see or read but, I found this rather interesting. I has to do with religion, our government and our direction. You can see it here: 

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

I have seen parts,but finally saw the whole documentary about a week ago. It is absolutely a thought provoking movie. I suggest everyone watch it at least once.

i posted the link to the main site a month or so ago hoping some people would watch it.

I think it brings up some interesting points although i don’t agree with a lot of them.

good movie, especially for the up and coming youths, it stirs some critically thinking in a nearly brainwashed upcoming generation imo.

What parts do you not agree with?

Just watched it yesterday.

Some considerable information but WFT with the anti-semitism???

It discredits the whole documentary.

if you’ve read any of the GOOD criticisms of the movie (there are a bunch of idiots that just write a “criticism” and say “THEY’RE WRONG…AND THEY’RE GAY…THEY’RE GONNA BURN IN HELL NOWAH!!!1111oneone” without anything supporting their “claims”) there are a few that bring up good points.

If you take a look at Zeitgeist’s sources, there’s one book in particular written by a scholar that’s used reoccuringly (in part one) I can’t remember the book or author off hand, but the scholar’s been denounced and shunned as unreliable and has a reputation for making his own unbased claims. If you look around i’m sure you’ll be able to find who i’m talking about, if not PM me and i’ll send the particular source to you.

As for Part II and III i found them both amazingly interesting, it being the first i’ve seen of its kind, i also liked the the Network (great movie) scenes they worked into the documentary. However some of the things they claim just seem a bit too out there for me, some things they say are well based and some just have too little evidence to have a well based arguement. However I will say if that one quote from Rockafeller with the rich can be 100% proven I’d be a little more convinced.

Anyways this is a bit of a makeshift response for now, excuse any grammatical and spelling errors, and if you want to go more in depth feel free to PM.

Part II And III? That’s World Trade Center and Federal Reserve right?

Deq do you agree that there is obvious overtones of antisemitism in idea that the film ultimately portrays?

And nevermind the conspiracies, anyone can call it sheepish if you want but you’ll never know anyway, and your government has too much control over these issues. - That a conspiracy?

Yea I read that the sources were bogus. This is true?

What the hell is anti-Semitism anyway? I’ve never had a problem with Jewish people; they’re just another culture to me. Why do I keep hearing this word over and over again? Who the hell has a problem with the Jews? Is it something religious, racial or personal.

Pardon my ignorance, but in Australia there are not many Jews, so this term is rarely used, and nobody has any problem with Jews.

JB have you ever heard of the Holocaust?

That’s a movement started on behalf of antisemitism.

Basically, Jewish have a lot of investments and a very tight community. $$.

Jews are also believed to be the direct decedents of the the Israelites, who are believed to be the original people of god. Because they were the first known monotheist.

Christ was Jewish but since the Jews do not recognize Christ as a divine being, the Christians reject Judaism. Basically, Judaism needs to step their game up.

Jews have been persecuted probably since their founding around 2000BC, because they’re not a majority anywhere. Now more-so because there is no Jew-land, besides Israel which wasn’t founded until 1947 by Holocaust survivors and is still divided with the Arabs.

Enter Islam. Put a people in a new land and take wealth from an already established culture and you get suicide bombings. Gaza. Muslims and Jews don’t like each other, they hate each other.

I need to watch the film again. I was getting an antisemitic vibe from it.

The “film” is pure propoganda, garbage, I felt dirty after watching it.

The part about the Federal Reserve is nothing that that you don’t learn in a macroeconomics class, anyone who is “shocked” by this revelation about the Federal Reserve and central banking was obviously asleep during class.

The part about religion is up for interpretation I suppose. I don’t follow a religion, but I sure as shit don’t tell people that they are stupid for believing in something. This elitist attitude that athiests have over other people is sickening and dangerous.

Bush, the Jews, Cheney, and Haliburton WERE NOT BEHIND 9-11! Fucking christ people. Come on. Ugh. Anything that suggests that the “gubbmint” had anything to do with 9-11 automatically loses all credibility with me by default.

But, whatever. I mean, legions of 15 year olds in their mothers basments are watching this shit and going: “Yeah! Yeah! Fuck Bush and the government! Yeah! Fuck religion and the idiots that believe in something! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck the banks and money! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck authority!”

…Fine, whatever…

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
The “film” is pure propaganda, garbage, I felt dirty after watching it.[/quote]

Is all propaganda garbage?

[quote]
The part about the Federal Reserve is nothing that that you don’t learn in a macroeconomics class, anyone who is “shocked” by this revelation about the Federal Reserve and central banking was obviously asleep during class.[/quote]

Are you sure that your classes did not have a propaganda agenda? Most Conspiracy theorist believe that the liberal left has infiltrated the education system.

[quote]
The part about religion is up for interpretation I suppose. I don’t follow a religion, but I sure as shit don’t tell people that they are stupid for believing in something. This elitist attitude that atheists have over other people is sickening and dangerous.[/quote]

I don’t remember any atheists persecuting and executing anyone for their beliefs. Do you think that it is leading up to such an attempt? That’s more than you can say for any other belief system that has existed in a place that would allow such behavior. One might argue that atheism only exists because of an environment that would allow such a belief to go un-persecuted.

[quote]
Bush, the Jews, Cheney, and Haliburton WERE NOT BEHIND 9-11! Fucking christ people. Come on. Ugh. Anything that suggests that the “gubbmint” had anything to do with 9-11 automatically loses all credibility with me by default.[/quote]

This sounds like Propaganda. I agree that it is not likely, but asking for a new 911 commission to investigate does not seem unreasonable.

[quote]
But, whatever. I mean, legions of 15 year olds in their mothers basements are watching this shit and going: “Yeah! Yeah! Fuck Bush and the government! Yeah! Fuck religion and the idiots that believe in something! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck the banks and money! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck authority!”

…Fine, whatever…[/quote]

The Last sentence should have been

…Whatever Fuck them…

That way your reply would have correctly shown the contradiction in your stance. Irony. It makes one question your motives for replying with a stance on any of it at all.

I am saying do not take this movie to the bank, take the movie and use it as an opportunity to look into information for yourself. If anyone takes it for more than an attempt to get people to think and question issues bigger than them selves than I agree that it could be dangerous. It would serve as a pathetic “call to arms” for revolution though.

I agree.

Humanism vs. The Corporate Machine is what the argument has always been. Extreme depictions of this idea can be seen in Sci-Fi movies such as The Matrix.

Theres nothing wrong with having a face to point your finger at, so long as you feel that you have a better way. Democracy.

Skaz, what “elitist attitude that athiests have over other people”? About other people? The control over the people? Not an attack, just an attempt to understand you fully.

[quote]skaz05 wrote:
The “film” is pure propoganda, garbage, I felt dirty after watching it.

The part about the Federal Reserve is nothing that that you don’t learn in a macroeconomics class, anyone who is “shocked” by this revelation about the Federal Reserve and central banking was obviously asleep during class.

The part about religion is up for interpretation I suppose. I don’t follow a religion, but I sure as shit don’t tell people that they are stupid for believing in something. This elitist attitude that athiests have over other people is sickening and dangerous.

Bush, the Jews, Cheney, and Haliburton WERE NOT BEHIND 9-11! Fucking christ people. Come on. Ugh. Anything that suggests that the “gubbmint” had anything to do with 9-11 automatically loses all credibility with me by default.

But, whatever. I mean, legions of 15 year olds in their mothers basments are watching this shit and going: “Yeah! Yeah! Fuck Bush and the government! Yeah! Fuck religion and the idiots that believe in something! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck the banks and money! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck authority!”

…Fine, whatever…[/quote]

Just like what was said to Neo by Morpheus in the Matrix, there are those in the system who are so dependent on it, indoctrinated into it, that they would fight to defend it. The sheep/cattle become their own shepherds/cowherds.

The young guys living in basements SHOULD be saying fuck certain aspects of organized religion, government, the banking/money system and authority. People SHOULD be questioning the status quo. We are playing by the rules of someone else’s game. The economic system the world runs by has become so convoluted, complex and mystified that nobody can understand it.

Really, I think it runs on just a few simple principles that have been shrouded in all that mumbo-jumbo, so whatever explanation someone can come up with for an event, can easily be countered by an equally plausible argument from the same area of reasoning. That way, the truth stays buried beneath meaningless quibbling.

Okay, I’ve watched the first 20 minutes of it and I don’t think I buy into the explaining away of Christianity into purely a zodiacal, seasonal phenomenon.

As for the other ‘Solar Messiahs’, I’ve never heard of all those as having exactly the same characteristics as the Christ story. For example, Horus was not born of a virgin. The story is that his mother, Isis, made a penis and had sex with the reassembled dead body of Osiris to conceive Horus. That is NOT a virgin birth.

I bet a lot of those other Solar Messiah parallels are suspect too.

The dates for all of them being born on December 25 are suspect. A lot of those historical or myhtical figures were around BEFORE the advent of the Gregorian calendar we use today, so how could they say December 25 was the birthday when they weren’t even going by that system at the time? Doesn’t make sense to me…unless they correlate the older calendar system with our current one. But that could be inaccurate.

It looks convincing the way the parallels are drawn, but there could be other explanations for the correlations. Correlation is not necessarily causation.

I guess I’ll watch the rest of it and see how it goes…

35 minutes into it and I’m not buying into any of Part I…they’ve got it all wrong - they’re basing their explanation on the surface meanings of organized religion & politics and not the deeper truths buried within it all.

It’s thought provoking, but all they’ve done is throw together some information and assumptions, connected the dots and said “here is a picture of the truth”.

This may discredit the rest of the documentary, in my opinion.

Deeper truths? This is sarcasm right?

[quote]meangenes wrote:
Deeper truths? This is sarcasm right?[/quote]

Yes, there are deeper truths and no I was not being sarcastic because the film is only “debunking” the exoteric, organized religion form of Christianity. This is the form consumed by the masses, which was decided by the Council of Nicea - of what people were to know and believe - and this is what most people know about it today.

Part I of the documentary putting a spin on things and crafting the viewer’s opinion to lead to its conclusions. I can create a premise, and take bits and pieces of history, connect a few dots and make them support my premise too.

The question is - did they do the same thing for Parts II and III of this documentary, or are the next two parts stronger and more realistic?

I search for universal truth, and I am prepared to think the next parts are plausible as long as they do not have the same faults as Part I.

Throwing out the salvation message of Christianity, or the idea that Christ ever existed, is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It gives us no hope or rock to stand and fight against these unseen enemies they are defining. Part I did seem like anti-Christian propaganda - but I feel that it is against the organized, manipulative form that we should resist, and not the message of the greatest human potential that is truly within.

I am seeking my own path, and I am not one of the sheeple - meangenes, I question things just like you do bro, except I have sided with the opposite polarity to your nihilistic, “man is inherently evil” philosophy as mentioned in your own thread. Doesn’t mean we are enemies though :slight_smile:

[quote]meangenes wrote:
I need to watch the film again. I was getting an antisemitic vibe from it. [/quote]

I didn’t find anything anti-Semitic in it…what made you think that?

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around. What do you see? Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it. "

[quote]meangenes wrote:
Skaz, what “elitist attitude that athiests have over other people”? About other people? The control over the people? Not an attack, just an attempt to understand you fully.[/quote]

From what I have experienced with atheists, many of them truly believe that they are smarter, more civilized, and somehow “better” than people who believe in a religion, or a god. By talking to them I get the impression that since they don’t believe in a “silly invisible man in the sky” this means that they have it all figured out.

This movie highlights this by reducing religion to “silly sun worship” and “tracking of the stars”.

Atheists are intensly condescending people, just like vegans. It is an elitist attitude, where people who believe in religion, or eat meat, are morally and intellecutaly inferior to those who don’t. That is elitism in my book.

I don’t belive in any religion, I guess you could call me an atheist, but I will NEVER think that someone is stupid, or naive, or uncivilized, or ignorant because they believe in something that I don’t. I HATE condescending people and elitism. It makes people ugly.