Anybody Use Dumbbells Anymore?

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Why would anyone not use them?[/quote]

I listed several reasons in my earlier posts of why they have not been in my program for a while…recovery, questionable strength building benefit, programming the big 4 lifts. I get that anyone can ‘use’ them, just wondering about their effectiveness & place in a strength based program. Good answer though, thanks for your input.[/quote]

Why don’t you think you can gain strength using dumbbells? [/quote]

I don’t think that. That’s kind of my original question though. I used to always mix in dumbbells with my lifting…but didn’t really know what I was doing and going nowhere. But since reading tnation and following strength programs from Wendler and CT, they focus mainly on the big 4 bb work. Even most of the assistance work they prescribe is more main bb lifts at a lighter weight, different angle, etc… Don’t get me wrong I have made a lot of progress following those programs. But aside from rows, there is rarely a mention of dumbbells in any of those strength programs.

I like dumbbell work - got a shit load of them in my home gym and as I said I miss using them. There’s no better pump for me than knocking out a set of 10 with 100# db’s after an intense chest session. But not chasing the pump now, chasing strength. Following CT’s layer program I haven’t touched a db in a while. But in regards to recovery, strength building, and frankly time…the question I was putting out to the forum was for opinions on db work in a strength based program, and carry over to the main lifts. Given one is healthy enough to not have to use dumbbells vs a bb as a previous poster mentioned. [/quote]

Gotcha, not really in my field of knowledge. Good luck.

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

[quote]KCthick wrote:
Personally, I never felt that dumbells helped my bench that much. At least, not at much at other barbell pressing movements(close grip, incline, etc). [/quote]

you guys guys do any dumb bell flys for pec work?[/quote]

Never been a fan of flys…should I be?[/quote]

the dumbbell fly gave my chest greater width. i already had good thickness.

flys focus on the outer portions of the chest. the bench press concentrates more on the center.

it sounds funny but it seems to make me able to breath deeper and helps with other upper body balance. just my .02

The one main BB lift that I have substituted DB for BB work is the shoulder press.

This is mostly due to shoulder issues, since I press the dumbells with a neutral grip. I have never tried a Swiss bar, and my gym doesn’t have one either. Loading is an issue, since for safety and setup, I don’t do too much work in the 1-3 rep range. Most of my “heavy” work is sets of 5s.

But, I do wish I could do the standard military press instead.

[quote]conservativedog wrote:

the dumbbell fly gave my chest greater width. i already had good thickness.

flys focus on the outer portions of the chest. the bench press concentrates more on the center.

it sounds funny but it seems to make me able to breath deeper and helps with other upper body balance. just my .02

[/quote]

hahaha, what?

I don’t use dumbbells as much as I did when training in more conventional, bodybuilder mimicking splits. However, they’re still an important tool for me, especially because they tend to be easier on my joints. My shoulders suck, so I program in db presses pretty often. I can push in the perfect angle to hit my pecs and also protect my shoulder joints. I also keep standing curls, usually relatively light, to keep my tendons healthy.

My side delts are somewhat of a weak point for me, so db raises find their way into my workouts every so often as well. I also throw in bent over db rows when I need to work on back thickness but want to save my lower back for deads/squats/high pulls. Overall, barbells are my primary tool for building strength, power and size but dbs are invaluable for catching up on weak points, maintaining my joints/tendons, and generally getting in work in temporary situations where a comparable barbell exercise might have too high a recovery cost.

Grove, I realize you already started a thread in the Injury forum regarding your elbow issues. If you want, you should consider continuing it here.

This is your thread so, as the OP, I don’t think others will protest if the topic deviates somewhat.

Also, the BSL subforum is more frequented by a very few select group of lifters who:

  1. actually walk the talk as opposed to being some questionable character that just cherry picks studies off the 'net

  2. may have some anecdotal stories you may find valuable (this is where having a thread in a subforum with more traffic is to you advantage); obviously, you will need to realize that their stories and solutions may not correspond directly to your situation (but you never know)

  3. because some of the solutions absolutely involve db’s; so there is relevance to the premise of how this thread originally started

  4. the members who regularly post here aren’t exactly shy when they smell a pile of manure; this tends to keep the trolling to a minimum

Some of the advice given (at the time of this post) in the Injury subforum are okay. However, the theraband flex bar does not have a perfect batting average.

And taping the area is, at best, short term solution or one that should be used sparingly.

Ultimately, we need to get to the core of the matter if want to resolve this (or, at least, dramatically make changes).

So here are the same questions I posed in the other thread:

  1. Although I theorized it to be medial epicondylitis based on your description, it absolutely is not a diagnosis. Please keep that in mind.

  2. What is your athletic history?

  3. What (if any) prior injuries have you had? What did you do for rehab?

  4. What type of curling variations do you perform? Be as specific as possible Do you use a straight bb or ez bar? Do you use dbs? And what exact types of curls do you perform?

  5. When you perform chin ups, do you use the standard straight bar or do you have a set up that allows some freedom of movement (such as blast straps)?

  6. Do you perform anything to strengthen the extensors of the elbow?

  7. Does neutral grip curls (such as hammer or pinwheel) cause pain?

  8. What does your current program look like?

  9. Do you perform any self myofascial release?

There are more questions. However, if you can provide information to the above, I think you’ll get some positive feedback from the real lifters here.

[quote]56x11 wrote:
Grove, I realize you already started a thread in the Injury forum regarding your elbow issues. If you want, you should consider continuing it here.

This is your thread so, as the OP, I don’t think others will protest if the topic deviates somewhat.

Also, the BSL subforum is more frequented by a very few select group of lifters who:

  1. actually walk the talk as opposed to being some questionable character that just cherry picks studies off the 'net

  2. may have some anecdotal stories you may find valuable (this is where having a thread in a subforum with more traffic is to you advantage); obviously, you will need to realize that their stories and solutions may not correspond directly to your situation (but you never know)

  3. because some of the solutions absolutely involve db’s; so there is relevance to the premise of how this thread originally started

  4. the members who regularly post here aren’t exactly shy when they smell a pile of manure; this tends to keep the trolling to a minimum

Some of the advice given (at the time of this post) in the Injury subforum are okay. However, the theraband flex bar does not have a perfect batting average.

And taping the area is, at best, short term solution or one that should be used sparingly.

Ultimately, we need to get to the core of the matter if want to resolve this (or, at least, dramatically make changes).

So here are the same questions I posed in the other thread:

  1. Although I theorized it to be medial epicondylitis based on your description, it absolutely is not a diagnosis. Please keep that in mind.

  2. What is your athletic history?

  3. What (if any) prior injuries have you had? What did you do for rehab?

  4. What type of curling variations do you perform? Be as specific as possible Do you use a straight bb or ez bar? Do you use dbs? And what exact types of curls do you perform?

  5. When you perform chin ups, do you use the standard straight bar or do you have a set up that allows some freedom of movement (such as blast straps)?

  6. Do you perform anything to strengthen the extensors of the elbow?

  7. Does neutral grip curls (such as hammer or pinwheel) cause pain?

  8. What does your current program look like?

  9. Do you perform any self myofascial release?

There are more questions. However, if you can provide information to the above, I think you’ll get some positive feedback from the real lifters here.

[/quote]

Just to preface this…I mentioned preferring chins over curls in another thread, and acknowledged that curls hurt my elbow. 56x11 wanted to offer assistance…so to answer your questions:

  1. athletic history - former basketball player. 45 yo, 6’5, 230lbs. I consider myself athletic, no major injuries.
  2. I have mobility issues from being a desk jockey now. I continue to try and improve this with t-spine work, foam rolling, stretching etc…
  3. Used to ez bar curl heavy a lot. Heavy db’s also. Past 3-4 years have been only hammer curls, light weight. Still irritates / burns inside of elbow.
  4. When performing chin-ups, I have a straight bar only. But I also use a v attach over the bar sometimes for neutral grip. this helps.
  5. I do nothing to my knowledge to strengthen the extensors of elbow - clueless on this?
  6. Neutral grip curls / hammer curls in light moderation do not cause pain, but continued use will irritate at times
  7. Current program is layers by CT. Bench / push press / squat / trap bar deads. I also like adding a BBB assistance after each session (after bench, add a few sets of 10 press, after TB, add some front squats, etc…
  8. I do not regularly work on myself, except for the mobility drills mentioned above.

I will add that I fight tightness in my lats and pecs. This is why I learned and started the mobility drills and foam rolling. It helps, but posture and push / pull balance are things I struggle with. Just sitting here typing this at my desk I feel my pec cramping up and I haven’t benched in 6 days. All suggestions welcome, thanks.

Grove,

Thanks for responding in this subforum.

The reason I prefer BSL is that it gets a lot more traffic from people who actually lift and have the integrity to state that their experience is just that - theirs. In other words, they don’t just scrape some info off a 'net search and pretend to be an expert. Hell, I can get my 12 year old nephew to do the same thing on his tablet. Would I actually take weight lifting advice from him…?

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. athletic history - former basketball player. 45 yo, 6’5, 230lbs. I consider myself athletic, no major injuries.

[/quote]

Doesn’t appear that your former sport caused much irritation to the area. If anything, you may have jumped in too heavy too soon into weight training without a solid foundation.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I have mobility issues from being a desk jockey now. I continue to try and improve this with t-spine work, foam rolling, stretching etc…

[/quote]

By all means, continue. The maddening aspect about trying to instill this into people is that it rarely gives immediate results. It takes time to undo months or years of incorrect posture/lifting.

You may want to consider the ergonomics of your working environment. This may sound trivial, but it sounds like you spend a good eight hours per day or so in a relatively fixed position.

If possible, set a timer at 15-20 minute intervals. When that thing beeps, do something to get out of that fixed position and perform mini-mobility work. It can be something as simple as opening up t-spine, squeezing the scaps together and down, just standing up and squeezing the glutes to push the pelvis into posterior tilt…you get the the idea. Repeatedly remind your body what proper posture is.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Used to ez bar curl heavy a lot. Heavy db’s also. Past 3-4 years have been only hammer curls, light weight. Still irritates / burns inside of elbow.

[/quote]

The reason hammer curls using relatively light weight now bothers you is that the damage has already been done.

Although the ez bar does give some relief, it still places the wrist and elbows in a fixed position. If your limbs are proportional to a 6’5" male, that also tells me that the lever (forearm) is longer than that of the average male.

For example, I’m 5’10" with a +1 ape index. This makes my lever shorter than yours. Also, although I don’t have imaging to prove this, I’m quite certain that my biceps attach to the forearm in a much more advantageous position. This further adds to my edge as far as curling heavy.

So if you’re at a gym and see me repping out with 165lbs, don’t get into that knee-jerk reaction of adding more weight to your bar, just so you can keep up with the neighbor (but hey, you’d bagel me in a one-on-one basketball game).

Get out of that mindset (if you’re in it) that just because you weigh an x amount, you should curl a certain percentage of that number.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. When performing chin-ups, I have a straight bar only. But I also use a v attach over the bar sometimes for neutral grip. this helps.

[/quote]

This, to me, is a bit of a conundrum. If curls irritate the medial aspect of your elbows (where the flexors attach) then straight bar chins should have similar results. Perhaps the fact that other muscles such as the lats, rear delts, triceps long head, mid/lower traps, rhomboids, pec minor, etc are along for the ride helps.

Regardless, I won’t be shocked if, sooner or later, chins begin to bother you. One method of proactively addressing is using a NON-FIXED DEVICE.

Scroll down to 8/14/2011 post in which I posted a vid. At your height, this will make it even more challenging to find a high-enough set up. Since around 2010, I’ve performed a majority of my pull ups/one arms/dips/push ups using this principle and it’s one of the best decisions I made. It is MORE challenging than a fixed set up so do not be discouraged if your numbers are lower using this.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do nothing to my knowledge to strengthen the extensors of elbow - clueless on this?

[/quote]

Plenty of info out there if you’re sufficiently motivated. One method I employ is the unilateral cable (or band) push downs with the palm facing UP. Keep the wrist neutral (or in a position of slight extension) and the act of performing the movement will recruit the extensors. No need to go heavy on this and keep it as more of a finisher.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Neutral grip curls / hammer curls in light moderation do not cause pain, but continued use will irritate at times

[/quote]

I already covered this earlier.

Another thing is that even though hammer or pin wheel curls preferentially recruit the brachioradialis (as well as the brachialis in the upper arm), the flexors of the forearm will be somewhat involved. And as the brachioradilis fatigues, then flexors will kick in more to help.

As far as gripping the db, if you choke up where the thumb/index finger area of the hand is braced against the db, this may help you on the hammer and pinwheels.

And you also need to incorporate controlled eccentrics when feasible. There’s a time to incorporate the stretch reflex and a time to minimize the eccentric portion of the lift. AFTER I’m done with heavy deads or speed work, I make it a point to do 3-5 second eccentrics on the accessory/vanity lifts. Not only will this allow to get more out of less weight, it absolutely will help with connective tissue strengthening.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Current program is layers by CT. Bench / push press / squat / trap bar deads. I also like adding a BBB assistance after each session (after bench, add a few sets of 10 press, after TB, add some front squats, etc…

[/quote]

I DESPISE when someone tries to tell one of my people to alter the programming I wrote out for them. These people have little to no clue of why I wrote the custom program. And they usually are not very strong and/or look mediocre and/or are injured.

In that regard, if you’re running Thibs’ program, you need to go into his subforum and ask for a possible replacement of the trap bar deads.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do not regularly work on myself, except for the mobility drills mentioned above.

[/quote]

This why I suggested yesterday that you look into trigger points/adhesions.

In the injury subforum, croatian mentioned cross friction therapy. This is just one method and he probably recommended it because it’s the one that he’s familiar with.

However, I remind you of the wonderful advice given by Emerson:

â??As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.â??

The PRINCIPLE that you need to be aware of is to resolve the trigger points/adhesions. Once you understand this, you can take Emerson’s cue and discover the METHOD that works best for you.

This exactly why I did NOT specify a particular modality in my earlier posts.

One thing that I can tell you is that I’ve had great success with myself and my people is to work on the adhesions before and after loading. Everyone knows about pre but very few realize that if you do this post, the body may be in a more receptive state.

[quote]56x11 wrote:
Grove,

Thanks for responding in this subforum.

The reason I prefer BSL is that it gets a lot more traffic from people who actually lift and have the integrity to state that their experience is just that - theirs. In other words, they don’t just scrape some info off a 'net search and pretend to be an expert. Hell, I can get my 12 year old nephew to do the same thing on his tablet. Would I actually take weight lifting advice from him…?

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. athletic history - former basketball player. 45 yo, 6’5, 230lbs. I consider myself athletic, no major injuries.

[/quote]

Doesn’t appear that your former sport caused much irritation to the area. If anything, you may have jumped in too heavy too soon into weight training without a solid foundation.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I have mobility issues from being a desk jockey now. I continue to try and improve this with t-spine work, foam rolling, stretching etc…

[/quote]

By all means, continue. The maddening aspect about trying to instill this into people is that it rarely gives immediate results. It takes time to undo months or years of incorrect posture/lifting.

You may want to consider the ergonomics of your working environment. This may sound trivial, but it sounds like you spend a good eight hours per day or so in a relatively fixed position.

If possible, set a timer at 15-20 minute intervals. When that thing beeps, do something to get out of that fixed position and perform mini-mobility work. It can be something as simple as opening up t-spine, squeezing the scaps together and down, just standing up and squeezing the glutes to push the pelvis into posterior tilt…you get the the idea. Repeatedly remind your body what proper posture is.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Used to ez bar curl heavy a lot. Heavy db’s also. Past 3-4 years have been only hammer curls, light weight. Still irritates / burns inside of elbow.

[/quote]

The reason hammer curls using relatively light weight now bothers you is that the damage has already been done.

Although the ez bar does give some relief, it still places the wrist and elbows in a fixed position. If your limbs are proportional to a 6’5" male, that also tells me that the lever (forearm) is longer than that of the average male.

For example, I’m 5’10" with a +1 ape index. This makes my lever shorter than yours. Also, although I don’t have imaging to prove this, I’m quite certain that my biceps attach to the forearm in a much more advantageous position. This further adds to my edge as far as curling heavy.

So if you’re at a gym and see me repping out with 165lbs, don’t get into that knee-jerk reaction of adding more weight to your bar, just so you can keep up with the neighbor (but hey, you’d bagel me in a one-on-one basketball game).

Get out of that mindset (if you’re in it) that just because you weigh an x amount, you should curl a certain percentage of that number.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. When performing chin-ups, I have a straight bar only. But I also use a v attach over the bar sometimes for neutral grip. this helps.

[/quote]

This, to me, is a bit of a conundrum. If curls irritate the medial aspect of your elbows (where the flexors attach) then straight bar chins should have similar results. Perhaps the fact that other muscles such as the lats, rear delts, triceps long head, mid/lower traps, rhomboids, pec minor, etc are along for the ride helps.

Regardless, I won’t be shocked if, sooner or later, chins begin to bother you. One method of proactively addressing is using a NON-FIXED DEVICE.

Scroll down to 8/14/2011 post in which I posted a vid. At your height, this will make it even more challenging to find a high-enough set up. Since around 2010, I’ve performed a majority of my pull ups/one arms/dips/push ups using this principle and it’s one of the best decisions I made. It is MORE challenging than a fixed set up so do not be discouraged if your numbers are lower using this.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do nothing to my knowledge to strengthen the extensors of elbow - clueless on this?

[/quote]

Plenty of info out there if you’re sufficiently motivated. One method I employ is the unilateral cable (or band) push downs with the palm facing UP. Keep the wrist neutral (or in a position of slight extension) and the act of performing the movement will recruit the extensors. No need to go heavy on this and keep it as more of a finisher.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Neutral grip curls / hammer curls in light moderation do not cause pain, but continued use will irritate at times

[/quote]

I already covered this earlier.

Another thing is that even though hammer or pin wheel curls preferentially recruit the brachioradialis (as well as the brachialis in the upper arm), the flexors of the forearm will be somewhat involved. And as the brachioradilis fatigues, then flexors will kick in more to help.

As far as gripping the db, if you choke up where the thumb/index finger area of the hand is braced against the db, this may help you on the hammer and pinwheels.

And you also need to incorporate controlled eccentrics when feasible. There’s a time to incorporate the stretch reflex and a time to minimize the eccentric portion of the lift. AFTER I’m done with heavy deads or speed work, I make it a point to do 3-5 second eccentrics on the accessory/vanity lifts. Not only will this allow to get more out of less weight, it absolutely will help with connective tissue strengthening.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Current program is layers by CT. Bench / push press / squat / trap bar deads. I also like adding a BBB assistance after each session (after bench, add a few sets of 10 press, after TB, add some front squats, etc…

[/quote]

I DESPISE when someone tries to tell one of my people to alter the programming I wrote out for them. These people have little to no clue of why I wrote the custom program. And they usually are not very strong and/or look mediocre and/or are injured.

In that regard, if you’re running Thibs’ program, you need to go into his subforum and ask for a possible replacement of the trap bar deads.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do not regularly work on myself, except for the mobility drills mentioned above.

[/quote]

This why I suggested yesterday that you look into trigger points/adhesions.

In the injury subforum, croatian mentioned cross friction therapy. This is just one method and he probably recommended it because it’s the one that he’s familiar with.

However, I remind you of the wonderful advice given by Emerson:

�¢??As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.�¢??

The PRINCIPLE that you need to be aware of is to resolve the trigger points/adhesions. Once you understand this, you can take Emerson’s cue and discover the METHOD that works best for you.

This exactly why I did NOT specify a particular modality in my earlier posts.

One thing that I can tell you is that I’ve had great success with myself and my people is to work on the adhesions before and after loading. Everyone knows about pre but very few realize that if you do this post, the body may be in a more receptive state.

[/quote]

Hey 56x11, really appreciate the time you put in to this…thanks. Sounds like you know your stuff. I will apply your suggestions, though a replacement for the trap bar is going to be tough = its one of my staples that has really helped improve my overall strength. Will definitely try the reverse band idea and the swivel handles on the chins. I have done the hammer curl holding close to the bell and it did help. Good suggestion about the eccentric. And mobility work is definitely a life thing, they just don’t make desks for 6’5 freaks. Thanks again and I will follow up with you in a bit.

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:
Grove,

Thanks for responding in this subforum.

The reason I prefer BSL is that it gets a lot more traffic from people who actually lift and have the integrity to state that their experience is just that - theirs. In other words, they don’t just scrape some info off a 'net search and pretend to be an expert. Hell, I can get my 12 year old nephew to do the same thing on his tablet. Would I actually take weight lifting advice from him…?

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. athletic history - former basketball player. 45 yo, 6’5, 230lbs. I consider myself athletic, no major injuries.

[/quote]

Doesn’t appear that your former sport caused much irritation to the area. If anything, you may have jumped in too heavy too soon into weight training without a solid foundation.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I have mobility issues from being a desk jockey now. I continue to try and improve this with t-spine work, foam rolling, stretching etc…

[/quote]

By all means, continue. The maddening aspect about trying to instill this into people is that it rarely gives immediate results. It takes time to undo months or years of incorrect posture/lifting.

You may want to consider the ergonomics of your working environment. This may sound trivial, but it sounds like you spend a good eight hours per day or so in a relatively fixed position.

If possible, set a timer at 15-20 minute intervals. When that thing beeps, do something to get out of that fixed position and perform mini-mobility work. It can be something as simple as opening up t-spine, squeezing the scaps together and down, just standing up and squeezing the glutes to push the pelvis into posterior tilt…you get the the idea. Repeatedly remind your body what proper posture is.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Used to ez bar curl heavy a lot. Heavy db’s also. Past 3-4 years have been only hammer curls, light weight. Still irritates / burns inside of elbow.

[/quote]

The reason hammer curls using relatively light weight now bothers you is that the damage has already been done.

Although the ez bar does give some relief, it still places the wrist and elbows in a fixed position. If your limbs are proportional to a 6’5" male, that also tells me that the lever (forearm) is longer than that of the average male.

For example, I’m 5’10" with a +1 ape index. This makes my lever shorter than yours. Also, although I don’t have imaging to prove this, I’m quite certain that my biceps attach to the forearm in a much more advantageous position. This further adds to my edge as far as curling heavy.

So if you’re at a gym and see me repping out with 165lbs, don’t get into that knee-jerk reaction of adding more weight to your bar, just so you can keep up with the neighbor (but hey, you’d bagel me in a one-on-one basketball game).

Get out of that mindset (if you’re in it) that just because you weigh an x amount, you should curl a certain percentage of that number.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. When performing chin-ups, I have a straight bar only. But I also use a v attach over the bar sometimes for neutral grip. this helps.

[/quote]

This, to me, is a bit of a conundrum. If curls irritate the medial aspect of your elbows (where the flexors attach) then straight bar chins should have similar results. Perhaps the fact that other muscles such as the lats, rear delts, triceps long head, mid/lower traps, rhomboids, pec minor, etc are along for the ride helps.

Regardless, I won’t be shocked if, sooner or later, chins begin to bother you. One method of proactively addressing is using a NON-FIXED DEVICE.

Scroll down to 8/14/2011 post in which I posted a vid. At your height, this will make it even more challenging to find a high-enough set up. Since around 2010, I’ve performed a majority of my pull ups/one arms/dips/push ups using this principle and it’s one of the best decisions I made. It is MORE challenging than a fixed set up so do not be discouraged if your numbers are lower using this.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do nothing to my knowledge to strengthen the extensors of elbow - clueless on this?

[/quote]

Plenty of info out there if you’re sufficiently motivated. One method I employ is the unilateral cable (or band) push downs with the palm facing UP. Keep the wrist neutral (or in a position of slight extension) and the act of performing the movement will recruit the extensors. No need to go heavy on this and keep it as more of a finisher.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Neutral grip curls / hammer curls in light moderation do not cause pain, but continued use will irritate at times

[/quote]

I already covered this earlier.

Another thing is that even though hammer or pin wheel curls preferentially recruit the brachioradialis (as well as the brachialis in the upper arm), the flexors of the forearm will be somewhat involved. And as the brachioradilis fatigues, then flexors will kick in more to help.

As far as gripping the db, if you choke up where the thumb/index finger area of the hand is braced against the db, this may help you on the hammer and pinwheels.

And you also need to incorporate controlled eccentrics when feasible. There’s a time to incorporate the stretch reflex and a time to minimize the eccentric portion of the lift. AFTER I’m done with heavy deads or speed work, I make it a point to do 3-5 second eccentrics on the accessory/vanity lifts. Not only will this allow to get more out of less weight, it absolutely will help with connective tissue strengthening.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Current program is layers by CT. Bench / push press / squat / trap bar deads. I also like adding a BBB assistance after each session (after bench, add a few sets of 10 press, after TB, add some front squats, etc…

[/quote]

I DESPISE when someone tries to tell one of my people to alter the programming I wrote out for them. These people have little to no clue of why I wrote the custom program. And they usually are not very strong and/or look mediocre and/or are injured.

In that regard, if you’re running Thibs’ program, you need to go into his subforum and ask for a possible replacement of the trap bar deads.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do not regularly work on myself, except for the mobility drills mentioned above.

[/quote]

This why I suggested yesterday that you look into trigger points/adhesions.

In the injury subforum, croatian mentioned cross friction therapy. This is just one method and he probably recommended it because it’s the one that he’s familiar with.

However, I remind you of the wonderful advice given by Emerson:

�?�¢??As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.�?�¢??

The PRINCIPLE that you need to be aware of is to resolve the trigger points/adhesions. Once you understand this, you can take Emerson’s cue and discover the METHOD that works best for you.

This exactly why I did NOT specify a particular modality in my earlier posts.

One thing that I can tell you is that I’ve had great success with myself and my people is to work on the adhesions before and after loading. Everyone knows about pre but very few realize that if you do this post, the body may be in a more receptive state.

[/quote]

Hey 56x11, really appreciate the time you put in to this…thanks. Sounds like you know your stuff. I will apply your suggestions, though a replacement for the trap bar is going to be tough = its one of my staples that has really helped improve my overall strength. Will definitely try the reverse band idea and the swivel handles on the chins. I have done the hammer curl holding close to the bell and it did help. Good suggestion about the eccentric. And mobility work is definitely a life thing, they just don’t make desks for 6’5 freaks. Thanks again and I will follow up with you in a bit.[/quote]

Glad I could provide some insight. As stated before the info I give has a foundation based on science and is topped off with empirical knowledge gained in the weight room and helping many other people.

As previously stated, there are a handful of knowledgeable lifters in BSL who won’t suffer trolls and pretenders. So they will also give some feedback on your case.

You can try wrist straps on the trap bar deads. This may help. Since you are running CT’s program, it’s best to defer this to him.

I don’t know if it gets chilly where you train. If it does, keeping those elbows warm will also help when training. Sleeves or even socks with the toes cut out will work. I don’t recommend elbow wraps in that they can give a false sense of health/security. The LAST thing you need to load the elbows with excessive weight.

The beauty of bands is they are very portable. I still have my Elite micro bands from 2010 (not sure if they even sell those anymore) and I often do restoration work: very light resistance for moderate to high reps using easy tempo that promotes blood flow.

I wager that once you resolve this issue, you’ll be glad you never got rid of your dbs. It’s just going to take time and there WILL be stock-market like fluctuations in that you’ll have bull and bear days. As long as the overall trend is moving upward, you’ll get there. At the risk of sounding like a greeting card, the fundamentals of staying positive and keeping an open mind are key.

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:
Grove,

Thanks for responding in this subforum.

The reason I prefer BSL is that it gets a lot more traffic from people who actually lift and have the integrity to state that their experience is just that - theirs. In other words, they don’t just scrape some info off a 'net search and pretend to be an expert. Hell, I can get my 12 year old nephew to do the same thing on his tablet. Would I actually take weight lifting advice from him…?

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. athletic history - former basketball player. 45 yo, 6’5, 230lbs. I consider myself athletic, no major injuries.

[/quote]

Doesn’t appear that your former sport caused much irritation to the area. If anything, you may have jumped in too heavy too soon into weight training without a solid foundation.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I have mobility issues from being a desk jockey now. I continue to try and improve this with t-spine work, foam rolling, stretching etc…

[/quote]

By all means, continue. The maddening aspect about trying to instill this into people is that it rarely gives immediate results. It takes time to undo months or years of incorrect posture/lifting.

You may want to consider the ergonomics of your working environment. This may sound trivial, but it sounds like you spend a good eight hours per day or so in a relatively fixed position.

If possible, set a timer at 15-20 minute intervals. When that thing beeps, do something to get out of that fixed position and perform mini-mobility work. It can be something as simple as opening up t-spine, squeezing the scaps together and down, just standing up and squeezing the glutes to push the pelvis into posterior tilt…you get the the idea. Repeatedly remind your body what proper posture is.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Used to ez bar curl heavy a lot. Heavy db’s also. Past 3-4 years have been only hammer curls, light weight. Still irritates / burns inside of elbow.

[/quote]

The reason hammer curls using relatively light weight now bothers you is that the damage has already been done.

Although the ez bar does give some relief, it still places the wrist and elbows in a fixed position. If your limbs are proportional to a 6’5" male, that also tells me that the lever (forearm) is longer than that of the average male.

For example, I’m 5’10" with a +1 ape index. This makes my lever shorter than yours. Also, although I don’t have imaging to prove this, I’m quite certain that my biceps attach to the forearm in a much more advantageous position. This further adds to my edge as far as curling heavy.

So if you’re at a gym and see me repping out with 165lbs, don’t get into that knee-jerk reaction of adding more weight to your bar, just so you can keep up with the neighbor (but hey, you’d bagel me in a one-on-one basketball game).

Get out of that mindset (if you’re in it) that just because you weigh an x amount, you should curl a certain percentage of that number.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. When performing chin-ups, I have a straight bar only. But I also use a v attach over the bar sometimes for neutral grip. this helps.

[/quote]

This, to me, is a bit of a conundrum. If curls irritate the medial aspect of your elbows (where the flexors attach) then straight bar chins should have similar results. Perhaps the fact that other muscles such as the lats, rear delts, triceps long head, mid/lower traps, rhomboids, pec minor, etc are along for the ride helps.

Regardless, I won’t be shocked if, sooner or later, chins begin to bother you. One method of proactively addressing is using a NON-FIXED DEVICE.

Scroll down to 8/14/2011 post in which I posted a vid. At your height, this will make it even more challenging to find a high-enough set up. Since around 2010, I’ve performed a majority of my pull ups/one arms/dips/push ups using this principle and it’s one of the best decisions I made. It is MORE challenging than a fixed set up so do not be discouraged if your numbers are lower using this.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do nothing to my knowledge to strengthen the extensors of elbow - clueless on this?

[/quote]

Plenty of info out there if you’re sufficiently motivated. One method I employ is the unilateral cable (or band) push downs with the palm facing UP. Keep the wrist neutral (or in a position of slight extension) and the act of performing the movement will recruit the extensors. No need to go heavy on this and keep it as more of a finisher.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Neutral grip curls / hammer curls in light moderation do not cause pain, but continued use will irritate at times

[/quote]

I already covered this earlier.

Another thing is that even though hammer or pin wheel curls preferentially recruit the brachioradialis (as well as the brachialis in the upper arm), the flexors of the forearm will be somewhat involved. And as the brachioradilis fatigues, then flexors will kick in more to help.

As far as gripping the db, if you choke up where the thumb/index finger area of the hand is braced against the db, this may help you on the hammer and pinwheels.

And you also need to incorporate controlled eccentrics when feasible. There’s a time to incorporate the stretch reflex and a time to minimize the eccentric portion of the lift. AFTER I’m done with heavy deads or speed work, I make it a point to do 3-5 second eccentrics on the accessory/vanity lifts. Not only will this allow to get more out of less weight, it absolutely will help with connective tissue strengthening.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Current program is layers by CT. Bench / push press / squat / trap bar deads. I also like adding a BBB assistance after each session (after bench, add a few sets of 10 press, after TB, add some front squats, etc…

[/quote]

I DESPISE when someone tries to tell one of my people to alter the programming I wrote out for them. These people have little to no clue of why I wrote the custom program. And they usually are not very strong and/or look mediocre and/or are injured.

In that regard, if you’re running Thibs’ program, you need to go into his subforum and ask for a possible replacement of the trap bar deads.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do not regularly work on myself, except for the mobility drills mentioned above.

[/quote]

This why I suggested yesterday that you look into trigger points/adhesions.

In the injury subforum, croatian mentioned cross friction therapy. This is just one method and he probably recommended it because it’s the one that he’s familiar with.

However, I remind you of the wonderful advice given by Emerson:

�??�?�¢??As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.�??�?�¢??

The PRINCIPLE that you need to be aware of is to resolve the trigger points/adhesions. Once you understand this, you can take Emerson’s cue and discover the METHOD that works best for you.

This exactly why I did NOT specify a particular modality in my earlier posts.

One thing that I can tell you is that I’ve had great success with myself and my people is to work on the adhesions before and after loading. Everyone knows about pre but very few realize that if you do this post, the body may be in a more receptive state.

[/quote]

Hey 56x11, really appreciate the time you put in to this…thanks. Sounds like you know your stuff. I will apply your suggestions, though a replacement for the trap bar is going to be tough = its one of my staples that has really helped improve my overall strength. Will definitely try the reverse band idea and the swivel handles on the chins. I have done the hammer curl holding close to the bell and it did help. Good suggestion about the eccentric. And mobility work is definitely a life thing, they just don’t make desks for 6’5 freaks. Thanks again and I will follow up with you in a bit.[/quote]

Glad I could provide some insight. As stated before the info I give has a foundation based on science and is topped off with empirical knowledge gained in the weight room and helping many other people.

As previously stated, there are a handful of knowledgeable lifters in BSL who won’t suffer trolls and pretenders. So they will also give some feedback on your case.

You can try wrist straps on the trap bar deads. This may help. Since you are running CT’s program, it’s best to defer this to him.

I don’t know if it gets chilly where you train. If it does, keeping those elbows warm will also help when training. Sleeves or even socks with the toes cut out will work. I don’t recommend elbow wraps in that they can give a false sense of health/security. The LAST thing you need to load the elbows with excessive weight.

The beauty of bands is they are very portable. I still have my Elite micro bands from 2010 (not sure if they even sell those anymore) and I often do restoration work: very light resistance for moderate to high reps using easy tempo that promotes blood flow.

I wager that once you resolve this issue, you’ll be glad you never got rid of your dbs. It’s just going to take time and there WILL be stock-market like fluctuations in that you’ll have bull and bear days. As long as the overall trend is moving upward, you’ll get there. At the risk of sounding like a greeting card, the fundamentals of staying positive and keeping an open mind are key.

[/quote]

LOL @ science, and not a single evidence based article was presented that day

OMG hes giving advice get his IP addresses and pursue!!!

not srs

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:

[quote]Grove wrote:

[quote]56x11 wrote:
Grove,

Thanks for responding in this subforum.

The reason I prefer BSL is that it gets a lot more traffic from people who actually lift and have the integrity to state that their experience is just that - theirs. In other words, they don’t just scrape some info off a 'net search and pretend to be an expert. Hell, I can get my 12 year old nephew to do the same thing on his tablet. Would I actually take weight lifting advice from him…?

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. athletic history - former basketball player. 45 yo, 6’5, 230lbs. I consider myself athletic, no major injuries.

[/quote]

Doesn’t appear that your former sport caused much irritation to the area. If anything, you may have jumped in too heavy too soon into weight training without a solid foundation.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I have mobility issues from being a desk jockey now. I continue to try and improve this with t-spine work, foam rolling, stretching etc…

[/quote]

By all means, continue. The maddening aspect about trying to instill this into people is that it rarely gives immediate results. It takes time to undo months or years of incorrect posture/lifting.

You may want to consider the ergonomics of your working environment. This may sound trivial, but it sounds like you spend a good eight hours per day or so in a relatively fixed position.

If possible, set a timer at 15-20 minute intervals. When that thing beeps, do something to get out of that fixed position and perform mini-mobility work. It can be something as simple as opening up t-spine, squeezing the scaps together and down, just standing up and squeezing the glutes to push the pelvis into posterior tilt…you get the the idea. Repeatedly remind your body what proper posture is.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Used to ez bar curl heavy a lot. Heavy db’s also. Past 3-4 years have been only hammer curls, light weight. Still irritates / burns inside of elbow.

[/quote]

The reason hammer curls using relatively light weight now bothers you is that the damage has already been done.

Although the ez bar does give some relief, it still places the wrist and elbows in a fixed position. If your limbs are proportional to a 6’5" male, that also tells me that the lever (forearm) is longer than that of the average male.

For example, I’m 5’10" with a +1 ape index. This makes my lever shorter than yours. Also, although I don’t have imaging to prove this, I’m quite certain that my biceps attach to the forearm in a much more advantageous position. This further adds to my edge as far as curling heavy.

So if you’re at a gym and see me repping out with 165lbs, don’t get into that knee-jerk reaction of adding more weight to your bar, just so you can keep up with the neighbor (but hey, you’d bagel me in a one-on-one basketball game).

Get out of that mindset (if you’re in it) that just because you weigh an x amount, you should curl a certain percentage of that number.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. When performing chin-ups, I have a straight bar only. But I also use a v attach over the bar sometimes for neutral grip. this helps.

[/quote]

This, to me, is a bit of a conundrum. If curls irritate the medial aspect of your elbows (where the flexors attach) then straight bar chins should have similar results. Perhaps the fact that other muscles such as the lats, rear delts, triceps long head, mid/lower traps, rhomboids, pec minor, etc are along for the ride helps.

Regardless, I won’t be shocked if, sooner or later, chins begin to bother you. One method of proactively addressing is using a NON-FIXED DEVICE.

Scroll down to 8/14/2011 post in which I posted a vid. At your height, this will make it even more challenging to find a high-enough set up. Since around 2010, I’ve performed a majority of my pull ups/one arms/dips/push ups using this principle and it’s one of the best decisions I made. It is MORE challenging than a fixed set up so do not be discouraged if your numbers are lower using this.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do nothing to my knowledge to strengthen the extensors of elbow - clueless on this?

[/quote]

Plenty of info out there if you’re sufficiently motivated. One method I employ is the unilateral cable (or band) push downs with the palm facing UP. Keep the wrist neutral (or in a position of slight extension) and the act of performing the movement will recruit the extensors. No need to go heavy on this and keep it as more of a finisher.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Neutral grip curls / hammer curls in light moderation do not cause pain, but continued use will irritate at times

[/quote]

I already covered this earlier.

Another thing is that even though hammer or pin wheel curls preferentially recruit the brachioradialis (as well as the brachialis in the upper arm), the flexors of the forearm will be somewhat involved. And as the brachioradilis fatigues, then flexors will kick in more to help.

As far as gripping the db, if you choke up where the thumb/index finger area of the hand is braced against the db, this may help you on the hammer and pinwheels.

And you also need to incorporate controlled eccentrics when feasible. There’s a time to incorporate the stretch reflex and a time to minimize the eccentric portion of the lift. AFTER I’m done with heavy deads or speed work, I make it a point to do 3-5 second eccentrics on the accessory/vanity lifts. Not only will this allow to get more out of less weight, it absolutely will help with connective tissue strengthening.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. Current program is layers by CT. Bench / push press / squat / trap bar deads. I also like adding a BBB assistance after each session (after bench, add a few sets of 10 press, after TB, add some front squats, etc…

[/quote]

I DESPISE when someone tries to tell one of my people to alter the programming I wrote out for them. These people have little to no clue of why I wrote the custom program. And they usually are not very strong and/or look mediocre and/or are injured.

In that regard, if you’re running Thibs’ program, you need to go into his subforum and ask for a possible replacement of the trap bar deads.

[quote]Grove wrote:

  1. I do not regularly work on myself, except for the mobility drills mentioned above.

[/quote]

This why I suggested yesterday that you look into trigger points/adhesions.

In the injury subforum, croatian mentioned cross friction therapy. This is just one method and he probably recommended it because it’s the one that he’s familiar with.

However, I remind you of the wonderful advice given by Emerson:

�??�??�?�¢??As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.�??�??�?�¢??

The PRINCIPLE that you need to be aware of is to resolve the trigger points/adhesions. Once you understand this, you can take Emerson’s cue and discover the METHOD that works best for you.

This exactly why I did NOT specify a particular modality in my earlier posts.

One thing that I can tell you is that I’ve had great success with myself and my people is to work on the adhesions before and after loading. Everyone knows about pre but very few realize that if you do this post, the body may be in a more receptive state.

[/quote]

Hey 56x11, really appreciate the time you put in to this…thanks. Sounds like you know your stuff. I will apply your suggestions, though a replacement for the trap bar is going to be tough = its one of my staples that has really helped improve my overall strength. Will definitely try the reverse band idea and the swivel handles on the chins. I have done the hammer curl holding close to the bell and it did help. Good suggestion about the eccentric. And mobility work is definitely a life thing, they just don’t make desks for 6’5 freaks. Thanks again and I will follow up with you in a bit.[/quote]

Glad I could provide some insight. As stated before the info I give has a foundation based on science and is topped off with empirical knowledge gained in the weight room and helping many other people.

As previously stated, there are a handful of knowledgeable lifters in BSL who won’t suffer trolls and pretenders. So they will also give some feedback on your case.

You can try wrist straps on the trap bar deads. This may help. Since you are running CT’s program, it’s best to defer this to him.

I don’t know if it gets chilly where you train. If it does, keeping those elbows warm will also help when training. Sleeves or even socks with the toes cut out will work. I don’t recommend elbow wraps in that they can give a false sense of health/security. The LAST thing you need to load the elbows with excessive weight.

The beauty of bands is they are very portable. I still have my Elite micro bands from 2010 (not sure if they even sell those anymore) and I often do restoration work: very light resistance for moderate to high reps using easy tempo that promotes blood flow.

I wager that once you resolve this issue, you’ll be glad you never got rid of your dbs. It’s just going to take time and there WILL be stock-market like fluctuations in that you’ll have bull and bear days. As long as the overall trend is moving upward, you’ll get there. At the risk of sounding like a greeting card, the fundamentals of staying positive and keeping an open mind are key.

[/quote]

LOL @ science, and not a single evidence based article was presented that day

OMG hes giving advice get his IP addresses and pursue!!!

not srs
[/quote]

Speaking of trolls (interesting how his name rhymes with that), this coward is just upset because I exposed him for the fraud that he is. So he comes here with his impotent antics. From the injury subforum

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Medical professional? nope work at a desk, but I have worked in conjunction with them and am familiar with LOE.
[/quote]

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

I dont know why this guy continually accuses me of being in the medical profession, I actually work in a cubicle all day lmao, I just like to exercise and read training methodology.
[/quote]

So he admits that he neither has formal training nor does he have real-world experience.

Check out this statement he made in a post from last year.

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/BHOLL#myForums/thread/5805447/

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
I’ve posted on here before about nagging golfer’s elbow pain and I’ve seen many people also have the same problem. I started going to a chiropractor right next to my gym a couple months ago. I was going for my nagging back pain issues which are all but non-existent now. I have squatted and deadlifted more than I ever have and pain free. But I also mentioned my forearm/elbow issue and he has this laser machine that they’ve used about 3x so far.

I’ve been doing chinups and pullups and curls pain free since those treatments! I have no idea what the laser is called but for the guys who have the same problem you may want to look into something like that. I’ve done a lot of massaging and finger extensions with the rubberbands as well but this treatment was the game changer. [/quote]

yup got it in my clinic

physio
[/quote]

READ THOSE LAST SEVEN WORDS

They sure do IMPLY that he is a PT or in the profession.

This sad fellow gets his pitiful sense of fulfillment by scraping together studies and abstracts he finds online. Then he advises people by pretending to be someone he’s not.

Everyone in the injury subforum who found this out stopped reaching out to him. And because I was instrumental in this, he comes crawling out of his hole.

Although, I am somewhat amused. Not every member on this forum has his own personal troll that comes following him like some stray dog begging for scraps of food. And you don’t have to worry about fleas or cleaning up after them.

Congratulations, bholl, now even more people will see you for what you really are: a sad degenerate attention seeker who is wailing because his one source of self-importance has been taken away.

I don’t know why you’re looking for an alternative to the trap-bar deadlift, since I can’t seem to find the reason in this thread… just that you are.

This is what CT said to me when I was looking for an alternative (since I don’t have a trap bar):

[quote]A good option is snatch grip deadlift starting with the hips low.

But the Dead-Squat/Trap bar deadlift is one of those things you can’t really substitute.[/quote]

Doing that with straps is acceptable. I’d assume wrist wraps too.

Not sure if that helps.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I don’t know why you’re looking for an alternative to the trap-bar deadlift, since I can’t seem to find the reason in this thread… just that you are.
[/quote]

Even though the elbows remain straight in a trap bar dead, as the load increases the work the flexors have to do to hold the weight isometrically.

The reason I put this out for Grove is that it’s important to anticipate the problems a certain exercise may pose down the road. And I wanted Grove to know as much of the potential ramifications his current selection of exercises can have on his injury.

So, Grove, at your prerogative, you don’t necessarily have to replace but do it in a way to take some of the stress of the irritated area. This is why I suggested you ask for a possible alternative. And when you stated how much the movement is doing for you, that’s when I suggested using wrist straps.

Hope this clarifies the subject.

I love DB’s. I tend to use them for most of my assistance work, rather than barbells.
Nothing beats a barbell for me for movement of sheer amount of weight, but for ROM, contraction and mind-muscle connection DB’s kill it.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I don’t know why you’re looking for an alternative to the trap-bar deadlift, since I can’t seem to find the reason in this thread… just that you are.

This is what CT said to me when I was looking for an alternative (since I don’t have a trap bar):

[quote]A good option is snatch grip deadlift starting with the hips low.

But the Dead-Squat/Trap bar deadlift is one of those things you can’t really substitute.[/quote]

Doing that with straps is acceptable. I’d assume wrist wraps too.

Not sure if that helps.[/quote]

While discussing pain in my elbow while curling, and to much lesser degree, TB deads, it was suggested I may need to find an alternative to trap bar. But I don’t see ever replacing it. I agree there is just no substitute. Trap bars are great. Especially me being tall. I’m just gonna have to tweak some things in my set up to avoid the elbow pain…I’m sure it is something I am doing wrong vs. the movement itself. Lorez you ought to get one (trap bar). And thanks for the link I’ll check it out.

"And taping the area is, at best, short term solution or one that should be used sparingly. "

"The efficacy of these variably invasive approaches contrasts with a simple mechanical intervention. The irritation that appears to be the source of the pain derives from stresses produced by the muscles which attach to the lateral epicondyle[48]. Reducing the stress on the attachment area seems a reasonable approach. Logically, a band applied to the forearm, just distal to the elbow, would be expected to reduce stress on muscle attachment to the epicondyle, and it does. Early attempts to utilize this approach, however, were only marginally effective, because commercially available bands have an unintended effect. Those several inch wide bands only reduced effective muscle strength. The reduced available muscle power did reduce stress on the epicondyle, but did so inadequately and use of such armbands was less effective than immobilization of the elbow[12]. The latter, of course, results in muscle atrophy and loss of strength.

My personal approach has been to utilize Velcro bands of 0.75 to 1 inch in width and to assure their application 1 inch below the epicondyle. That position is critical. Such placement has no effect on muscle strength, but displaces the stresses on the epicondyle, such that it was now at the site of the band and thus distal to the epicondyle. Pain was immediately reduced and eliminated within several weeks. Patients were advised to wear the bands continually, except when sleeping, and to continue their use for two weeks beyond their perception of any residual elbow pain. Recurrences have responded equally well, once the activity responsible for the epicondyle stress is modified. I have had only 5 patients who have not responded (with complete resolution of elbow symptoms) in the three decades that I have utilized this approach. That represents less than 1% failure rate, and that was in individuals who would or could not modify "

This approach can easily be transmitted over to the medial epicondyle

Keep trying young buck

^^^And here comes my personal troll begging for more attention.

My statement in an earlier post specifically states: "And taping the area is, at best, short term solution or one that should be used sparingly. "

Here’s the funny part…

The very study you cited actually does NOT contradict anything in that statement (unless a certain attention starved troll is desperate to try and regain credibility).

Here are some direct quotes from the study YOU CITED:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

Patients were advised to wear the bands continually, except when sleeping, and to continue their use for two weeks beyond their perception of any residual elbow pain…Recurrences have responded equally well, once the activity responsible for the epicondyle stress is modified.

[/quote]

Where in the study that YOU CITED does the author state that the taping method should be used long term?

Nowhere.

This is the part I meant when I stated “short term.”

Where in the study that YOU CITED does the author state or even imply that taping permits the injured person to continue to train aggressively?

Nowhere.

It’s obvious to anyone with a decent grasp of the English language that you’re simply trying to manipulate my words to contradict the study you cited - when in fact what I stated and the study you cited (in your sad attempt for more attention) point to the same direction.

And here is where your complete lack of real world experience comes into play. When someone CONSTANTLY RELIES on taping to mask the pain and load more and more weight to the bar, the injured area most likely will not improve. Maybe for a special event or a competition, the taping can be justified (if the individual is aware of and willing to accept the risk).

And this is the part I mean by “used sparingly.”

You’re simply trying to color my words with how you interpret them. And then you take YOUR interpretation of my words and try to fabricate what amounts to an empty argument. Text book troll tactics.

Here is the study that our latest BSL troll bholl (nice how that rhymes) cited:

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

"The efficacy of these variably invasive approaches contrasts with a simple mechanical intervention. The irritation that appears to be the source of the pain derives from stresses produced by the muscles which attach to the lateral epicondyle[48]. Reducing the stress on the attachment area seems a reasonable approach. Logically, a band applied to the forearm, just distal to the elbow, would be expected to reduce stress on muscle attachment to the epicondyle, and it does. Early attempts to utilize this approach, however, were only marginally effective, because commercially available bands have an unintended effect. Those several inch wide bands only reduced effective muscle strength. The reduced available muscle power did reduce stress on the epicondyle, but did so inadequately and use of such armbands was less effective than immobilization of the elbow[12]. The latter, of course, results in muscle atrophy and loss of strength.

My personal approach has been to utilize Velcro bands of 0.75 to 1 inch in width and to assure their application 1 inch below the epicondyle. That position is critical. Such placement has no effect on muscle strength, but displaces the stresses on the epicondyle, such that it was now at the site of the band and thus distal to the epicondyle. Pain was immediately reduced and eliminated within several weeks. Patients were advised to wear the bands continually, except when sleeping, and to continue their use for two weeks beyond their perception of any residual elbow pain. Recurrences have responded equally well, once the activity responsible for the epicondyle stress is modified. I have had only 5 patients who have not responded (with complete resolution of elbow symptoms) in the three decades that I have utilized this approach. That represents less than 1% failure rate, and that was in individuals who would or could not modify "

This approach can easily be transmitted over to the medial epicondyle

[/quote]

Every time you troll, you’re simply confirming what I stated about you earlier. I exposed you in the Injury subforum as a deceitful little man and now you’re bitter because the internet applause which you so relish has disappeared.

You can keep up your games and, depending how much comedy I happen to need at the time, I may or may not respond.

What people like you fail to realize is that the more you troll, the more people will be cognizant of what you are. They will know you as bholl the troll. And the inevitable and ironic consequence of this is that the very things you seek - respect and admiration - will never be yours.

[quote]BHOLL wrote:

"And taping the area is, at best, short term solution or one that should be used sparingly. "

"The efficacy of these variably invasive approaches contrasts with a simple mechanical intervention. The irritation that appears to be the source of the pain derives from stresses produced by the muscles which attach to the lateral epicondyle[48]. Reducing the stress on the attachment area seems a reasonable approach. Logically, a band applied to the forearm, just distal to the elbow, would be expected to reduce stress on muscle attachment to the epicondyle, and it does. Early attempts to utilize this approach, however, were only marginally effective, because commercially available bands have an unintended effect. Those several inch wide bands only reduced effective muscle strength. The reduced available muscle power did reduce stress on the epicondyle, but did so inadequately and use of such armbands was less effective than immobilization of the elbow[12]. The latter, of course, results in muscle atrophy and loss of strength.

My personal approach has been to utilize Velcro bands of 0.75 to 1 inch in width and to assure their application 1 inch below the epicondyle. That position is critical. Such placement has no effect on muscle strength, but displaces the stresses on the epicondyle, such that it was now at the site of the band and thus distal to the epicondyle. Pain was immediately reduced and eliminated within several weeks. Patients were advised to wear the bands continually, except when sleeping, and to continue their use for two weeks beyond their perception of any residual elbow pain. Recurrences have responded equally well, once the activity responsible for the epicondyle stress is modified. I have had only 5 patients who have not responded (with complete resolution of elbow symptoms) in the three decades that I have utilized this approach. That represents less than 1% failure rate, and that was in individuals who would or could not modify "

This approach can easily be transmitted over to the medial epicondyle

Keep trying young buck[/quote]

Velcro bands? What are these, where do you get them, and exactly where to apply for the pain I am experiencing?