T Nation

Anybody but Romney


#1

This is as Mufasa said Anti Obama or anti Romney .

I understand Zeb's point of view, because he works hard for his money . I do not think Zeb realizes many middle class people also work very hard.

I am not anti wealthy, I do not think they are evil .

I do think because of the tax code the wealthy are taking the wealth away from the working class.
And Romney is a exemplary example .

I know we have alot of middle class that are pro Romney and I see some flaws in their thinking "If they just stash it away in a bank account or better yet a vault under their mansion, "

I believe we need BIG regulations on capital gains tax. Capital gains tax was designed for Ma and Pa , when they sell their house and move into a retirement situation . Not for investors that make all their money with other money

And that is why when Romney's dollar is worth $.87 and mine is worth $.72 Romney has money power to make money with his dollar. That is the disparity I am talking about. NOt that he makes 21 mil and I make 120 thousand.

Articles are claiming if Romney were to be elected , under Ryan's tax plan that Romney would pay. %.82 not even %1


#2

I’m with you on some of this. 0.82% is a ludicrously low tax rate for a guy worth stacks and stacks of millions–not in the eyes of a communist or a socialist, but in the eyes of any reasonable American (including, I hope everyone realizes, the lionized Republicans of the past).

The problem, however, is that capital gains are taxed at a lower rate for a very good reason: because investing is risky and it is in the interest of all the economy’s participants to encourage it.

The solution has to balance these two forces. Any that doesn’t is inadequate. My thinking is that the capital gains tax should be kept low but something like a much more complex “Buffet Rule” should kick in to ensure that no one taking in over $500,000 is paying less than 20%. Buffet has a point when he says he shouldn’t be paying a lower rate than his secretary.


#3

In my opinion the Republicans will never join forces with the Democrats unless there is a serious threat from a 3rd party.

In RE: to capital gains IMO the people that make their money via capital gains want you to believe that . If you start a business you can gamble thousands of hours that can not be written off. And starting a business is just as risky as investing money , maybe more .

I quoted %.82 not because it is fact but that it is definitely worth investigating


#4

Our tax system has a two-fold purpose: to collect money to fund the federal, state and local government AND to provide INCENTIVES for behavior that our policy makers believe will move the country in a positive direction.

A low capital gains tax ENCOURAGES people to invest and make money in areas that CREATE JOBS. Just like you get a lower tax rate if you are married - they do that to reward that behavior.

You railing against a low capital gains tax is like a single person saying, “I want the same tax rate as a married person! It’s not FAIR!”.

If you want a lower tax rate, then - I don’t know - INVEST! If you want to create write offs to bring your overall tax burden down - I don’t know - START A BUSINESS! It only cost a few hundred dollars to set up an LLC and you can operate in the red for THREE YEARS and write off every fucking meal you have and ever mile you drive your car. Then after three years you BK it and start another one. This isn’t rocket science… ANYONE can do this. If you aren’t smart enough to figure it out, then instead of paying H&R Block $49 to do your tax returns, pay an ACCOUNTANT $500 to help you figure out how to save $5000! Why is this out of reach of the average person?

If the speed limit is 70 MPH, and you CHOOSE to drive 40 MPH, why the hell would you complain that it takes so long to get where you’re going?

There is NO barrier to entry in business. If an uneducated El Salvadorian immigrant can come here with twenty dollars in his pocket, start a business and ten years later own three houses, have a million in the bank and drive a Hummer, what’s YOUR excuse?


#5

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Our tax system has a two-fold purpose: to collect money to fund the federal, state and local government AND to provide INCENTIVES for behavior that our policy makers believe will move the country in a positive direction.

A low capital gains tax ENCOURAGES people to invest and make money in areas that CREATE JOBS. Just like you get a lower tax rate if you are married - they do that to reward that behavior.

You railing against a low capital gains tax is like a single person saying, “I want the same tax rate as a married person! It’s not FAIR!”.

If you want a lower tax rate, then - I don’t know - INVEST! If you want to create write offs to bring your overall tax burden down - I don’t know - START A BUSINESS! It only cost a few hundred dollars to set up an LLC and you can operate in the red for THREE YEARS and write off every fucking meal you have and ever mile you drive your car. Then after three years you BK it and start another one. This isn’t rocket science… ANYONE can do this. If you aren’t smart enough to figure it out, then instead of paying H&R Block $49 to do your tax returns, pay an ACCOUNTANT $500 to help you figure out how to save $5000! Why is this out of reach of the average person?

If the speed limit is 70 MPH, and you CHOOSE to drive 40 MPH, why the hell would you complain that it takes so long to get where you’re going?

There is NO barrier to entry in business. If an uneducated El Salvadorian immigrant can come here with twenty dollars in his pocket, start a business and ten years later own three houses, have a million in the bank and drive a Hummer, what’s YOUR excuse?

[/quote]

Yep


#6

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Our tax system to provide INCENTIVES for behavior that our policy makers believe will move the country in a positive direction.

[/quote]

Oh yeah where is that in the constitution ?


#7

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

If you want a lower tax rate, then -
[/quote]

Then vote for a candidate that better represents your point of veiw


#8

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Our tax system has a two-fold purpose: to collect money to fund the federal, state and local government AND to provide INCENTIVES for behavior that our policy makers believe will move the country in a positive direction.

A low capital gains tax ENCOURAGES people to invest and make money in areas that CREATE JOBS. Just like you get a lower tax rate if you are married - they do that to reward that behavior.

You railing against a low capital gains tax is like a single person saying, “I want the same tax rate as a married person! It’s not FAIR!”.

If you want a lower tax rate, then - I don’t know - INVEST! If you want to create write offs to bring your overall tax burden down - I don’t know - START A BUSINESS! It only cost a few hundred dollars to set up an LLC and you can operate in the red for THREE YEARS and write off every fucking meal you have and ever mile you drive your car. Then after three years you BK it and start another one. This isn’t rocket science… ANYONE can do this. If you aren’t smart enough to figure it out, then instead of paying H&R Block $49 to do your tax returns, pay an ACCOUNTANT $500 to help you figure out how to save $5000! Why is this out of reach of the average person?

If the speed limit is 70 MPH, and you CHOOSE to drive 40 MPH, why the hell would you complain that it takes so long to get where you’re going?

There is NO barrier to entry in business. If an uneducated El Salvadorian immigrant can come here with twenty dollars in his pocket, start a business and ten years later own three houses, have a million in the bank and drive a Hummer, what’s YOUR excuse?

[/quote]

Yep[/quote]

more intelligent conversation


#9

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

There is NO barrier to entry in business.
[/quote]

Yes there is , my dollar is worth $.70 and Mitt’s is worth $.87


#10

[quote]smh23 wrote:

The solution has to balance these two forces. Any that doesn’t is inadequate. My thinking is that the capital gains tax should be kept low but something like a much more complex “Buffet Rule” should kick in to ensure that no one taking in over $500,000 is paying less than 20%. Buffet has a point when he says he shouldn’t be paying a lower rate than his secretary.[/quote]

Holy shit… I only got 2 hours of sleep last night, so this may sound rude, please bear with me, I’m not trying to single you out.

We already have what you are talking about, have for fucking years.

I am so fucking sick of election year tax experts. Right and left.

It is called Alternative Mininum Tax, AMT. The thing is, it hasn’t been updated for the 21st century. But no one wants to fix it, like everything, put a bandade on it and hope it sticks. It was in the paper a lot a couple years ago, but it wasn’t an election year so all the arm chair facebook experts didn’t read about it.

This whole tax bullshit could be fixed on one form, one simple form. But that would require all the fucking pinko’s to admit the tax code isn’t “designed to oppress the poor” and the fucking douche bags in congress wouldn’t get a press clipping because no one knows what fuck it is… The fucking pinko’s would get their way and make sure they suck more money out of the rich to feed the fucking government machine they love so much. And rich people would just continue to funnel money overseas and operate in new ways that are less tax burdensome, all while paying in way fucking more, 100x more than they get back in service from the shit show that is our government.

This is why romney release of tax return issue is fucking stupid. There might be 3 people on this board that would even begin to understand what they say, and I’m being generous and including myself. But NNNOOOOOOOOOOO every dipshit and fuck stick needs to see them, so they can still not vote for someone they wouldn’t have anyway.

fuck

Sorry for swearing so much.


#11

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

The solution has to balance these two forces. Any that doesn’t is inadequate. My thinking is that the capital gains tax should be kept low but something like a much more complex “Buffet Rule” should kick in to ensure that no one taking in over $500,000 is paying less than 20%. Buffet has a point when he says he shouldn’t be paying a lower rate than his secretary.[/quote]

Holy shit… I only got 2 hours of sleep last night, so this may sound rude, please bear with me, I’m not trying to single you out.

We already have what you are talking about, have for fucking years.

I am so fucking sick of election year tax experts. Right and left.

It is called Alternative Mininum Tax, AMT. The thing is, it hasn’t been updated for the 21st century. But no one wants to fix it, like everything, put a bandade on it and hope it sticks. It was in the paper a lot a couple years ago, but it wasn’t an election year so all the arm chair facebook experts didn’t read about it.

This whole tax bullshit could be fixed on one form, one simple form. But that would require all the fucking pinko’s to admit the tax code isn’t “designed to oppress the poor” and the fucking douche bags in congress wouldn’t get a press clipping because no one knows what fuck it is… The fucking pinko’s would get their way and make sure they suck more money out of the rich to feed the fucking government machine they love so much. And rich people would just continue to funnel money overseas and operate in new ways that are less tax burdensome, all while paying in way fucking more, 100x more than they get back in service from the shit show that is our government.

This is why romney release of tax return issue is fucking stupid. There might be 3 people on this board that would even begin to understand what they say, and I’m being generous and including myself. But NNNOOOOOOOOOOO every dipshit and fuck stick needs to see them, so they can still not vote for someone they wouldn’t have anyway.

fuck

Sorry for swearing so much.[/quote]

For the most part we agree, we disagree on many fronts as far as swearing so much or having to answer me take my advice and fucking don’t :slight_smile:


#12

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

There is NO barrier to entry in business.
[/quote]

Yes there is , my dollar is worth $.70 and Mitt’s is worth $.87[/quote]

Um no, not even close.

His dollars after investing them are worth $.87. He had to have some OI at some point ot get the money to invest…


#13

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe we need BIG regulations on capital gains tax. Capital gains tax was designed for Ma and Pa , when they sell their house and move into a retirement situation . Not for investors that make all their money with other money [/quote]
Double edge sword.

My dad worked his entire life building a small company into a larger (yet still small) company. Invested every dime back into the company minus personal salary without benefits. When it came time for retirement he was able to sell his business for twice what he had paid for it and as a pat on the back for his efforts Uncle Sam took a big wet bite out of the capital gains.

I think business owners that sell their business past a certain age should qualify for the same tax shelters that IRA’s get. If your flipping businesses in your 30’s that one thing but when people sell a business at 65+ to retire the government should look at the capital gains differently.


#14

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

There is NO barrier to entry in business.
[/quote]

Yes there is , my dollar is worth $.70 and Mitt’s is worth $.87[/quote]

Um no, not even close.

His dollars after investing them are worth $.87. He had to have some OI at some point ot get the money to invest…[/quote]

And mine after investing is $.70


#15

[quote]JLone wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe we need BIG regulations on capital gains tax. Capital gains tax was designed for Ma and Pa , when they sell their house and move into a retirement situation . Not for investors that make all their money with other money [/quote]
Double edge sword.

My dad worked his entire life building a small company into a larger (yet still small) company. Invested every dime back into the company minus personal salary without benefits. When it came time for retirement he was able to sell his business for twice what he had paid for it and as a pat on the back for his efforts Uncle Sam took a big wet bite out of the capital gains.

I think business owners that sell their business past a certain age should qualify for the same tax shelters that IRA’s get. If your flipping businesses in your 30’s that one thing but when people sell a business at 65+ to retire the government should look at the capital gains differently. [/quote]

I would agree with your father’s situation . I think a one time tax exempt capital gains would be appropriate may be with a dollar amount fixed . There are many people that invest thousands of hours and because they do not have the money to pay themselves (UP FRONT) they end up forfieting their investment of time .


#16

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

There is NO barrier to entry in business.
[/quote]

Yes there is , my dollar is worth $.70 and Mitt’s is worth $.87[/quote]

Um no, not even close.

His dollars after investing them are worth $.87. He had to have some OI at some point ot get the money to invest…[/quote]

And mine after investing is $.70[/quote]

No, your dollar after investing is $.87

I swear you refuse to understand :wink:


#17

[quote]JLone wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe we need BIG regulations on capital gains tax. Capital gains tax was designed for Ma and Pa , when they sell their house and move into a retirement situation . Not for investors that make all their money with other money [/quote]
Double edge sword.

My dad worked his entire life building a small company into a larger (yet still small) company. Invested every dime back into the company minus personal salary without benefits. When it came time for retirement he was able to sell his business for twice what he had paid for it and as a pat on the back for his efforts Uncle Sam took a big wet bite out of the capital gains.

I think business owners that sell their business past a certain age should qualify for the same tax shelters that IRA’s get. If your flipping businesses in your 30’s that one thing but when people sell a business at 65+ to retire the government should look at the capital gains differently. [/quote]

No disrespect to your dad, but there are PLENTY of ways to structure the sale (or transfer of control) of a business in such a way that you don’t incur a huge tax burden. TRUST ME, I’VE DONE IT. It sounds like your dad got bad legal advise.


#18

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

There is NO barrier to entry in business.
[/quote]

Yes there is , my dollar is worth $.70 and Mitt’s is worth $.87[/quote]

So NUT UP and save an extra $0.17 / dollar and stop being a helpless VICTIM about it!

Consider the extra $0.17 / dollar the price of entry. YOU’LL MAKE IT BACK.


#19

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]JLone wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe we need BIG regulations on capital gains tax. Capital gains tax was designed for Ma and Pa , when they sell their house and move into a retirement situation . Not for investors that make all their money with other money [/quote]
Double edge sword.

My dad worked his entire life building a small company into a larger (yet still small) company. Invested every dime back into the company minus personal salary without benefits. When it came time for retirement he was able to sell his business for twice what he had paid for it and as a pat on the back for his efforts Uncle Sam took a big wet bite out of the capital gains.

I think business owners that sell their business past a certain age should qualify for the same tax shelters that IRA’s get. If your flipping businesses in your 30’s that one thing but when people sell a business at 65+ to retire the government should look at the capital gains differently. [/quote]

No disrespect to your dad, but there are PLENTY of ways to structure the sale (or transfer of control) of a business in such a way that you don’t incur a huge tax burden. TRUST ME, I’VE DONE IT. It sounds like your dad got bad legal advise.[/quote]
I should have edited my first post.

To make a long story short he used a tax attorney to help him save as much money as possible. I just think it’s a shame you have to pay a thousand dollars to tax attorneys to keep your own money. I guess you can use the analogy of driving under the speed limit to not use a lawyer but I think its a poor one.


#20

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Our tax system to provide INCENTIVES for behavior that our policy makers believe will move the country in a positive direction.

[/quote]

Oh yeah where is that in the constitution ?
[/quote]

Oh, you wanna bring THAT up? The Constitution of the United States tells us â??The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and General Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.â??

“SHALL BE UNIFORM THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES”

Tell THAT to all those fuckers who don’t pay ANY taxes at all!