Any Rifle Gurus Out There?

The .17 is cheap to shoot. A little more accurate and longer range then a standard .22.

5.56mm ammo is no longer cheap. It is running $450-500 or more for a case of 1000 rnds. That being said a decent AR-15 will run you about $750 unless you build it yourself. Cheap optics will run you another $100. Decent optics will ocst $300-400 or you can just use the iron sights. I had a very nice AR built for me with a free floating barrel that is positively one of the most accurate rifles I own and it only has a 16" barrel (1 in 8 twist). It ran about $1100 with all the things I wanted on it.

If you really enjoy target shooting go with the Savage. I have a Savage 10FP with the accu trigger. It cost me $508 stock. I put a decent scope on it that costs about the same but you can put a cheaper one on to start. The .308 cal. is accurate and many factory loads are available that will duplicate all but the very best handloads. Mine shoots sub moa groups out to 300 yds. with Federal Match ammo. The reason I like this rifle is that I own other rifles made by Weatherby and Remington that shoot about the same but cost twice as much. A little out of your price range but worth it. As you can tell I am a big Savage fan.

I don’t like the AK rifles. I know many do. Yes they are reliable but they are not generally accurate until you put a few mods into them, which makes them less reliable. That being said I own one but I don’t think they are the bargain they once were. Good for 50-100 yds. Maybe combat accurate a little further out but I just shoot at targets these days so I like to hit a little tighter then they are capable.

Always nice to see a good gun thread on T-Nation.

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
VanderLaan wrote:
Not sure why a weightlifting article that has a lead-in about some kid bringing a soft-air pellet gun to school should preclude an adult seeking advice on how to legally purchase a rifle for target practice. Perhaps you can explain that to us. I love America. Even idiots have the right to speak their mind.

To the OP - I would suggest that you avoid the .17 HMR (it is really nothing more than a hopped up .22) and check out a .223 instead. In particular, Savage puts a good quality rifle that is quite affordable. While they are nothing special to look at, Savage puts the money into the components that count (ie- the trigger and barrel). As such, they shoot pretty damned good right out of the box and you can really tweak 'em. You can buy surplus ammo by the bucket for next to nothing and the .223 shoots flat and far.

I don’t know about that as a .223 will be at a minimum 400 to 800 depending on make. If he was a serious varmint hunter target shooter I would agree with you. However, he said he’s into plinking and maybe he’ll get into a little small game hunting the 17 Hummer is perfect medicine for that.

OP, if you plan on big game hunting then get a 30-06 or 308, but if you don’t really have plans for that and will probably just do some rabbit, squirrel, and or small varmint, hunting the 17 or 22 Mag are great little rounds for that. I purchased a Marlin 17 HMR with the bull barrel for $275 and about another $100 for a Bushnell scope. I did put a thumbhole stock on it for another $130 just because I like the way they look, but it didn’t need it for any other purpose.

With this rig I can make inch and a half groups at a hundred and fifty yards which until the 17 came along was close to impossible with a rimfire round. I’ve smoked jackrabbits and cottontails with it close to that range as well. Ammo will run you about ten to twelve dollars a box for fifty rounds. Again, if you are plinking and hunting small game this is ideal IMO.

Keep in mind if you get a larger centerfire caliber ammo will be more expensive as well as rifle and if it’s 30-06 or above recoil will be much harder. Getting a centerfire rifle to shoot accurately can be a tedious job with having to buy and try different ammo and bullet weights until you find that your gun likes and shoots accurately. You may also have to have work done on your rifle to get it accurate like free floating the barrel or having it glass bedded. Generally stuff which can be avoided with a rimfire plinking round which are usually pretty accurate out of the box and with most over the counter ammo.

D[/quote]

He said that he does not hunt and is looking to plink around “out in the middle of nowhere”. Given that he already has a .22 and a scattergun, the .223 makes perfect sense to me. If he ever does decide to shoot rabbits or squirrels, a .22 will surely do the job. However, if he does decide to try varmint hunting, he will surely want something bigger than a .22 or a .17 (rimfire). The 12 will work for songdogs in some instances, but a flat shooting rifle is a necessity for coyotes and other varmints (prairie dogs). In short, the .223 gives him a more complete plinking arsenal than adding another small rimfire would.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
VanderLaan wrote:
… In particular, Savage puts a good quality rifle that is quite affordable. While they are nothing special to look at, Savage puts the money into the components that count (ie- the trigger and barrel). As such, they shoot pretty damned good right out of the box and you can really tweak 'em. You can buy surplus ammo by the bucket for next to nothing and the .223 shoots flat and far.

I have a Savage 110 in 30-06. Great rifle. Not much to look at but very accurate. Moreso than may buddies Remingtons, Rugers and Winchester bolt actions.

I also have an M1 Garand, Enfield Mk. IV and a Russian SKS. All good guns.

The SKS is a great power plinker and seems more accurate than friends AK’s.

It all depends on what you want to do with your rifle.[/quote]

I find it hard to believe that a Savage is more accurate than a Remington. It might be a wash. I’m thinking your buddies just can’t shoot. Most Remingtons I’ve seen shoot at least a moa out of the box. Mine was 1/2. It’s hard to beat that with any production rifle.

I’ve heard of Sakos shooting 1/2 out of the box for a non custom, but they won’t claim that it’s normal accuracy for those models.

I’m also not saying Savages are not good, but in my experience. nothing beats a Remington for accuracy + price combined.

[quote]hedo wrote:
The .17 is cheap to shoot. A little more accurate and longer range then a standard .22.

5.56mm ammo is no longer cheap. It is running $450-500 or more for a case of 1000 rnds. That being said a decent AR-15 will run you about $750 unless you build it yourself. Cheap optics will run you another $100. Decent optics will ocst $300-400 or you can just use the iron sights. I had a very nice AR built for me with a free floating barrel that is positively one of the most accurate rifles I own and it only has a 16" barrel (1 in 8 twist). It ran about $1100 with all the things I wanted on it.

If you really enjoy target shooting go with the Savage. I have a Savage 10FP with the accu trigger. It cost me $508 stock. I put a decent scope on it that costs about the same but you can put a cheaper one on to start. The .308 cal. is accurate and many factory loads are available that will duplicate all but the very best handloads. Mine shoots sub moa groups out to 300 yds. with Federal Match ammo. The reason I like this rifle is that I own other rifles made by Weatherby and Remington that shoot about the same but cost twice as much. A little out of your price range but worth it. As you can tell I am a big Savage fan.

I don’t like the AK rifles. I know many do. Yes they are reliable but they are not generally accurate until you put a few mods into them, which makes them less reliable. That being said I own one but I don’t think they are the bargain they once were. Good for 50-100 yds. Maybe combat accurate a little further out but I just shoot at targets these days so I like to hit a little tighter then they are capable.

Always nice to see a good gun thread on T-Nation.[/quote]

I agree 100%, I think of AKs as junk and not accurate enough. I’ve hear some good things about a Savage, so it’s great to hear another report. However,I don’t think they a lot cheaper than the Remington. Around here, new Remingtons are in the high 400s to high 500s new.

[quote]VanderLaan wrote:
He said that he does not hunt and is looking to plink around “out in the middle of nowhere”. Given that he already has a .22 and a scattergun, the .223 makes perfect sense to me. If he ever does decide to shoot rabbits or squirrels, a .22 will surely do the job. However, if he does decide to try varmint hunting, he will surely want something bigger than a .22 or a .17 (rimfire). The 12 will work for songdogs in some instances, but a flat shooting rifle is a necessity for coyotes and other varmints (prairie dogs). In short, the .223 gives him a more complete plinking arsenal than adding another small rimfire would.

[/quote]

Yes, a 22 is fine, out to fifty or 75 yards. A 17 just gives you more killing range on small game and smaller varmints. I don’t think you are wrong, a 223 has it’s advantages, but for someone in the OP’s shoes I think a 17 would be fine and fun. If he progressed on into shooting seriously and going after bigger varmints such as coyotes and bobcats and long range p-dogs then most definitely a 223 or better. Hell, I use a 243 for my coyote duties and sometimes deer.

I’ve read where some of the serious p-dog gunners like the 17 for duties out to 100-150 yards because they can shoot more rounds without the barrel overheating as quick as the centerfires will. I doubt the OP is going to be out the gates shooting p-dogs at 300 plus yards. That takes time and skill development as I am sure you know.

On another note I am seriously eyeing the Howa thumbhole stock in a 204 Ruger varmint rifle. If the other half lets me get it this year (doubtful) or then there’s that Marlin 308 Express lever that’s also peaked my interest…

Ah, guns you can never have enough for your outdoor activities.

D

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
VanderLaan wrote:
… In particular, Savage puts a good quality rifle that is quite affordable. While they are nothing special to look at, Savage puts the money into the components that count (ie- the trigger and barrel). As such, they shoot pretty damned good right out of the box and you can really tweak 'em. You can buy surplus ammo by the bucket for next to nothing and the .223 shoots flat and far.

I have a Savage 110 in 30-06. Great rifle. Not much to look at but very accurate. Moreso than may buddies Remingtons, Rugers and Winchester bolt actions.

I also have an M1 Garand, Enfield Mk. IV and a Russian SKS. All good guns.

The SKS is a great power plinker and seems more accurate than friends AK’s.

It all depends on what you want to do with your rifle.

I find it hard to believe that a Savage is more accurate than a Remington. It might be a wash. I’m thinking your buddies just can’t shoot. Most Remingtons I’ve seen shoot at least a moa out of the box. Mine was 1/2. It’s hard to beat that with any production rifle.

I’ve heard of Sakos shooting 1/2 out of the box for a non custom, but they won’t claim that it’s normal accuracy for those models.

I’m also not saying Savages are not good, but in my experience. nothing beats a Remington for accuracy + price combined.

[/quote]

There is no doubt that good rifles come in a green box. However, many reviews that I have read rave about the Savage Model 12s. The Model 12s have the accutrigger, which allows you to easily adjust trigger pull weight from 1.5-6 pounds, button rifled, free-floating barrels and pillar bedded stocks. Most reviews I have read and people I know that have them, shoot in the 3-shot 1/4" range. Not bad for a rifle that has an MSRP of about $850-900.

That said, this is clearly above the OP’s stated price range. However, a good used gun could be found for a fraction of that price either through an on-line broker or a local gun shop.

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
VanderLaan wrote:
He said that he does not hunt and is looking to plink around “out in the middle of nowhere”. Given that he already has a .22 and a scattergun, the .223 makes perfect sense to me. If he ever does decide to shoot rabbits or squirrels, a .22 will surely do the job. However, if he does decide to try varmint hunting, he will surely want something bigger than a .22 or a .17 (rimfire). The 12 will work for songdogs in some instances, but a flat shooting rifle is a necessity for coyotes and other varmints (prairie dogs). In short, the .223 gives him a more complete plinking arsenal than adding another small rimfire would.

Yes, a 22 is fine, out to fifty or 75 yards. A 17 just gives you more killing range on small game and smaller varmints. I don’t think you are wrong, a 223 has it’s advantages, but for someone in the OP’s shoes I think a 17 would be fine and fun. If he progressed on into shooting seriously and going after bigger varmints such as coyotes and bobcats and long range p-dogs then most definitely a 223 or better. Hell, I use a 243 for my coyote duties and sometimes deer.

I’ve read where some of the serious p-dog gunners like the 17 for duties out to 100-150 yards because they can shoot more rounds without the barrel overheating as quick as the centerfires will. I doubt the OP is going to be out the gates shooting p-dogs at 300 plus yards. That takes time and skill development as I am sure you know.

On another note I am seriously eyeing the Howa thumbhole stock in a 204 Ruger varmint rifle. If the other half lets me get it this year (doubtful) or then there’s that Marlin 308 Express lever that’s also peaked my interest…

Ah, guns you can never have enough for your outdoor activities.

D[/quote]

Agreed (on all points).

Savage makes rifles that are equal if not better than Remington rifles. Just because they are a tad bit less expensive does not make them lesser rifle. While I’d like to have a Remy 700pss, I’ll be picking up a savage 10fple instead! That’s how confident I am in the savages.

[quote]nsb22 wrote:

Savage makes rifles that are equal if not better than Remington rifles. Just because they are a tad bit less expensive does not make them lesser rifle. While I’d like to have a Remy 700pss, I’ll be picking up a savage 10fple instead! That’s how confident I am in the savages.
[/quote]

Agreed, Savage is known for putting out some really accurate rifles for a reasonable price. They have always had that rep as a plain Jane gun that shoots well. Remington puts out some nice rifles, but c’mon it’s not like were talking a Sako or Kimber or some other high dollar rig.

D

Damn I didnt expect to get this many replies thanks for all the information everyone.

Basically what I can sum up is:

The 17hmr is good for squirrel, rabbit and other animals of that sort. Good for target practice and small game essentially.

AR 15’s and AK’s are easily modded, however I’m having a hard time finding any in my price range.

I should check out .223’s.

Savage is pretty well known for their quality products, I just want something fun to shoot, who cares what it looks like, if it does the job that I want it to do who cares?

Having a higher calibur rifle will allow me to get into hunting bigger game if the opportunity ever arises.

If anyone can PM me some links to online gun stores/shops that would be great, like I said, I’m having a hard time finding stuff on AR 15’s and AK’s.

I’ve checked cabelas out and they pretty much sell any kind of ammo there is so that isn’t a biggie.

-xb

I’ve done a little bit of research and you could get an AR-15 for around $400 if you know how to strip and rebuild a gun.

You can buy it as a build-it-yourself kit. The first thing you need is a stripped down lower receiver which you can get from www.gunbroker.com for as little as $50. The good ones are forged, not cast.

Then you order a kit, which includes a stock, a bolt carrier assembly, and a barreled upper. Or you can order each part separately and then build it.

There is a manual on how to assemble it here: Assemble your own LOWER, UPPER, FREE FLOAT, TRIGGER, GAS BLOCK - Step by step instructions! - AR15.COM

Anyway, that’s an option for you instead of buying a pre-built gun - and you get to learn as well.

[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
I say go with an Armalite-15 clone for cheap…Versatile platform, tons of aftermarket stuff to trick it out in the future, ammo is reasonable $$, accurate, fun, cool, great for target work and one of the last great all-American designs from a genius so you get patriot points too/:wink: Besides, (on a depressing note), they are still legal in your state last I looked, unlike others, where the media smear campaign suceeded in having them banned just because they looked “intimidating”…[/quote]

Bump this! I’ve always wanted one but the nazi’s in my state outlawed them.

The Ruger mini 14 is a great rifle. Rounds are affordable and very accurate.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
VanderLaan wrote:
… In particular, Savage puts a good quality rifle that is quite affordable. While they are nothing special to look at, Savage puts the money into the components that count (ie- the trigger and barrel). As such, they shoot pretty damned good right out of the box and you can really tweak 'em. You can buy surplus ammo by the bucket for next to nothing and the .223 shoots flat and far.

I have a Savage 110 in 30-06. Great rifle. Not much to look at but very accurate. Moreso than may buddies Remingtons, Rugers and Winchester bolt actions.

I also have an M1 Garand, Enfield Mk. IV and a Russian SKS. All good guns.

The SKS is a great power plinker and seems more accurate than friends AK’s.

It all depends on what you want to do with your rifle.

I find it hard to believe that a Savage is more accurate than a Remington. It might be a wash. I’m thinking your buddies just can’t shoot. Most Remingtons I’ve seen shoot at least a moa out of the box. Mine was 1/2. It’s hard to beat that with any production rifle.

I’ve heard of Sakos shooting 1/2 out of the box for a non custom, but they won’t claim that it’s normal accuracy for those models.

I’m also not saying Savages are not good, but in my experience. nothing beats a Remington for accuracy + price combined.

[/quote]

I am comparing to one Remington also in 30-06. I have no idea how well it compares to others but it pisses my buddy off that my rifle shoots better than his at less than 1/2 the price. We both shoot tighter groups with my rifle than his so it is not the shooter.

My Savage is capable sub moa out of the box. Many 3 shot groups under an inch @ 100 yards. It is a great rifle.

[quote]VanderLaan wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
VanderLaan wrote:
… In particular, Savage puts a good quality rifle that is quite affordable. While they are nothing special to look at, Savage puts the money into the components that count (ie- the trigger and barrel). As such, they shoot pretty damned good right out of the box and you can really tweak 'em. You can buy surplus ammo by the bucket for next to nothing and the .223 shoots flat and far.

I have a Savage 110 in 30-06. Great rifle. Not much to look at but very accurate. Moreso than may buddies Remingtons, Rugers and Winchester bolt actions.

I also have an M1 Garand, Enfield Mk. IV and a Russian SKS. All good guns.

The SKS is a great power plinker and seems more accurate than friends AK’s.

It all depends on what you want to do with your rifle.

I find it hard to believe that a Savage is more accurate than a Remington. It might be a wash. I’m thinking your buddies just can’t shoot. Most Remingtons I’ve seen shoot at least a moa out of the box. Mine was 1/2. It’s hard to beat that with any production rifle.

I’ve heard of Sakos shooting 1/2 out of the box for a non custom, but they won’t claim that it’s normal accuracy for those models.

I’m also not saying Savages are not good, but in my experience. nothing beats a Remington for accuracy + price combined.

There is no doubt that good rifles come in a green box. However, many reviews that I have read rave about the Savage Model 12s. The Model 12s have the accutrigger, which allows you to easily adjust trigger pull weight from 1.5-6 pounds, button rifled, free-floating barrels and pillar bedded stocks. Most reviews I have read and people I know that have them, shoot in the 3-shot 1/4" range. Not bad for a rifle that has an MSRP of about $850-900.

That said, this is clearly above the OP’s stated price range. However, a good used gun could be found for a fraction of that price either through an on-line broker or a local gun shop.

[/quote]

Very true, a gun shop post Christmas is a great price to pick up a bargain. Rifles can be had for 400 with scope,app. half of the cost of new.

[quote]xb100 wrote:
If anyone can PM me some links to online gun stores/shops that would be great, like I said, I’m having a hard time finding stuff on AR 15’s and AK’s.
[/quote]

I like to use GunBroker to get an idea of the market price for guns.

[quote]nsb22 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that a Savage is more accurate than a Remington. It might be a wash. I’m thinking your buddies just can’t shoot. Most Remingtons I’ve seen shoot at least a moa out of the box. Mine was 1/2. It’s hard to beat that with any production rifle.

I’ve heard of Sakos shooting 1/2 out of the box for a non custom, but they won’t claim that it’s normal accuracy for those models.

I’m also not saying Savages are not good, but in my experience. nothing beats a Remington for accuracy + price combined.

Savage makes rifles that are equal if not better than Remington rifles. Just because they are a tad bit less expensive does not make them lesser rifle. While I’d like to have a Remy 700pss, I’ll be picking up a savage 10fple instead! That’s how confident I am in the savages.
[/quote]

The gun I use for hunting is a Remington police sniper model. It came out about 15 years ago. This one shot about 1/2" with match grade ammo out of the box. I did get some work done to it as said, maybe spending 400$ or so.

I think the gun was a bout 550$ in 1992. I’m not sure what the model goes for now. I think this rifle is the 700pss now, btw.

Again, it’s great to hear the reports of the Savage. I’m looking for a 243 for my 13 year old girl. She wants to hunt next year, so I’ll give the Savage a look.

So far I’m really liking the Ruger Mini 14.

It just looks like a real comfortable gun.
I’ve found a few used ones going for mid 400’s so that isn’t totally out of my price range.

Thanks for all the info!

[quote]xb100 wrote:
So far I’m really liking the Ruger Mini 14.

It just looks like a real comfortable gun.
I’ve found a few used ones going for mid 400’s so that isn’t totally out of my price range.

Thanks for all the info![/quote]

The mini 14 is a great idea for what you’re thinking about.