T Nation

Any Long Term Users of TRT Here?

Im just wondering if there are any long term users here that would care to share their experiences with TRT…

Also, has anyone used the oral caps long term.
I have been taking 7 x 40mg testosterone caps every day and am well in to my second year on them now. I find them brilliant but Im told health wise long term they aren’t that great.

So Im keen to hear of any one elses experiences with them…

Any one please feel free to join in and give me your thoughts… Please…

If you injected, you would be using 100mg/week testosterone ester. Right now are you talking 280mg/day, 1960mg/week. Wasteful and your levels might be poor. Might be messing with your liver as well.

Read the advice for new guys sticky, get your labs, post labs and ranges. Need cholesterol, glucose, PSA, HCT [hematocrit], TT, FT, E2, LH/FSH, ALT, AST. If young, you need prolactin data.

Provide lots of data about you.

T without hCG will shrink your testes and scrotum.

If T is elevating your estrogens [E2, Estradiol], you will not be doing very well.

Your question should be what happens when TRT is not done right.

I am on year 7.

[quote]KSman wrote:
If you injected, you would be using 100mg/week testosterone ester. Right now are you talking 280mg/day, 1960mg/week. Wasteful and your levels might be poor. Might be messing with your liver as well.

Read the advice for new guys sticky, get your labs, post labs and ranges. Need cholesterol, glucose, PSA, HCT [hematocrit], TT, FT, E2, LH/FSH, ALT, AST. If young, you need prolactin data.

Provide lots of data about you.

T without hCG will shrink your testes and scrotum.

If T is elevating your estrogens [E2, Estradiol], you will not be doing very well.

Your question should be what happens when TRT is not done right.

I am on year 7.[/quote]

Hmm been over a year and have had no bloods done.
I’ll listen to you and go get them done and repost in here results and info about me.
Thank you so much for your help and advice KSman

So if Im correct this is exactly what I need to email my nurse/doctor for blood tests needed?

" Need cholesterol, glucose, PSA, HCT [hematocrit], TT, FT, E2, LH/FSH, ALT, AST. If young, you need prolactin data."

Do I need to read the forum to see what other blood tests I need done or is above exactly what I need to get done and will the doc understand all the abreviations ok?
Thanks again KSman

The above will be good. If you provide the info suggested in the advice for new guys sticky, we can be more specific. In many cases, low-T is not the cause, but is a symptom of something else. Docs and patients are really often blinded by low-T tunnel vision. What are your other health issues and symptoms. What symptoms were affected by TRT or not?

Read the advice for new guys sticky!!!

We still do not even know your age.

Note that LH/FSH is generally useless when on TRT. TRT should take these to zero, except when TRT is failing to deliver T because of poor absorption.

[quote]KSman wrote:
The above will be good. If you provide the info suggested in the advice for new guys sticky, we can be more specific. In many cases, low-T is not the cause, but is a symptom of something else. Docs and patients are really often blinded by low-T tunnel vision. What are your other health issues and symptoms. What symptoms were affected by TRT or not?

Read the advice for new guys sticky!!!

We still do not even know your age.

Note that LH/FSH is generally useless when on TRT. TRT should take these to zero, except when TRT is failing to deliver T because of poor absorption.[/quote]

haven’t read the new guys sticky… I’ll do that next…
Just a quick run down on me.
I’m 51.
When I was in my mid 30’s I got my hands on some vet decca durabolin.
I took it for aprox 6 months with nothing else.
I am told I should have been stacking it with testosterone but I didn’t.
After aprox 6 months I stopped cold turkey.
During the time I was taking the decca my hair line receded a lot and stayed receded.
Regardless of what is said about Decca not causing hair loss in my case it clearly did.
For many years afterwards I felt something wasn’t quite right. I always seemed to lack energy.

In my 40’s I guessed low test was my problem so played around with more test spasmodically.
There was never any pct or any rhyme or reason to the periods I used or the amount. All very illogical. And of course in between taking I often felt tired and depressed. I had no idea what I was doing. I thought you could just stop and start testosterone supplementation when ever I felt like it.

I am just under 6ft.
currently 110kg which I think equates to 17 stone.
Im of soilid build but carrying around 20kg too much fat.

Started doing weights when I was 26years old and have trained on and off until now, depending on rotator cuff issues I have had.
I have always been over weight my whole life.
About 14 months back Is started on a regime of taking 7 x 40mg caps of test and have felt much better than ever. I have recently lost about 4kg and am training hard and the fat is coming off. I have energy I have never had in a long long time and I put it down to one of two things.

Obviously either the testosterone or there is one other issue to throw in to the mix.
For years eating breakfast has made me very tired and lethargic and hungry.
A few months back I decided the essential to have a good breakfast thing was b.s. and stopped eating a breakfast… Since then I have felt better than ever and the weight is falling off.

Added to the mix I used to go to bed at 1 to 2 am every morning…
Now Im in bed early… I also notice if I have a late night I handle it much much better than I used to… I put that directly down to taking test.

Hope that doesn’t confuse you too much…

I have been thinking about trying to stop taking test and trying natural ways to raise my test levels… Its what I think I should have done right from the start.

My test level was 13 nmol/l when I started this testosterone regime of taking 7 x 40 mg s per day. I had a blood test that showed the trough was only 8nmol/l before taking next my morning caps. I have no idea what my peak levels would be.

I haven’t really had too many other bloods done… Definitely nothing like you are asking me to do and not for some time…

I’m currently on Allinpurinol for gout but hope to stop taking that as more weight comes off.

[quote]KSman wrote:
The above will be good. If you provide the info suggested in the advice for new guys sticky, we can be more specific. In many cases, low-T is not the cause, but is a symptom of something else. Docs and patients are really often blinded by low-T tunnel vision. What are your other health issues and symptoms. What symptoms were affected by TRT or not?

Read the advice for new guys sticky!!!

We still do not even know your age.

Note that LH/FSH is generally useless when on TRT. TRT should take these to zero, except when TRT is failing to deliver T because of poor absorption.[/quote]

And to add, never had a problem with getting a woody on.
Grow facial hair easily… shave regularly…
Of solid build but carrying too much mainly around the gut but distributed evenly every where else.
Very healthy although have had slightly high cholesterol for the last few years.
Never had any hair loss or prostrate drugs.
Diet has been all over the place my whole life.
From starvation diets to eating way too much.

Currently on 2 clean meals a day lunch and tea, with the odd bit of fruit inbtween. No junk food! Feel full all the time. Best eating regime I have ever been on and will never change. I feel good eating this way and it suits me… Eating a breakfast makes me quite sick and lethargic with foggy thinking.

Training, aprox 1 and a half hours of cardio per day… And half our of light weights.
I have definitely over trained in the past. I cant train weights properly due to rotator cuff tear that is awaiting a surgery.
Testes, the odd ache or two in the past but noting major… other wise all good.
Although when I went on sustanon 250 for a couple of weeks I did notice them shrink drastically.
When I went back on the caps and they went back to normal.
I went off the sustanon because I couldn’t sleep properly while on it for the whole time I was on it… Yes I know, Im told that’s weird… But its what happened.

Current symptoms… None I feel great! The best I have felt in many years with energy to burn.

I have sent a request to my doc for the required blood tests and will post them as soon as they arrive…

Deca only cycles can be harmful. At 51, recovering youthful levels of T on your own is wishful thinking.

So testing LH/FSH is not going to be useful.

Need the labs.

What are your waking and mid afternoon oral body temperatures?
Do you use iodized salt?
Iodine in vitamins?
What is your resting blood pressure?

[quote]KSman wrote:
Deca only cycles can be harmful. At 51, recovering youthful levels of T on your own is wishful thinking.

So testing LH/FSH is not going to be useful.

Need the labs.

What are your waking and mid afternoon oral body temperatures?
Do you use iodized salt?
Iodine in vitamins?
What is your resting blood pressure?[/quote]

Oral temps? I don’t have a thermometer… I’ll need to buy one to sort that… might take a couple of days to get this sorted…

Yes, I do use iodized salt!

Blood pressure has always been good… I’ll need to wait until my next doc appoint to get this checked again… I’ll post it as soon as I get it…

I have requested bloods and will post them as soon as I get them…

cheers again KSman

You can check BP at many pharmacies with a machine.

I went to the gym today…
Last night I dropped oral tabs to 2 instead of 3
This morning I only took 3 tabs instead of my usual 4… So that’s down to 5 tabs instead of 7.
I still had energy to burn…
I had done this experiment recently (lowered dose) and had found I ran out of steam. So it looks like it wasn’t the lower test level that had me low on energy that particular day…
Hmmm, will try keeping the dose at 5 per day for a while to see what happens…

One thing I have noticed with oral test, no testes shrinkage… Maybe that could be an answer for those that cant get hCG… Go on the orals for a while??? Just a thought…

I have no idea of whether hCG is available or legal in NZ… Still looking in to it, just incase I need it in the future…

I’m going to give Cyp 100mg pw a go shortly…
I’m worried Im its going to be just like I was on Sustanon 250… On Sustanon I just couldn’t sleep…
Guess I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it…

Hmmm, maybe I shouldn’t be getting my bloods done until after I start the cyp which is going to be very soon?
Because Im not sure the doc will want me having another set of blood tests once I start on the cypionate.
Any thoughts there please KSman?

We have seen LH/FSH not going to zero when transdermals were ineffective. When you inject, if testes shrink and/or LH/FSH–>0, that tells us something too.

You do not want to burn off labs on a protocol that you are abandoning.

There is a lot of oral hCG scams there!

hCG is indicated in NZ for male problems:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=hcg+“new+zealand”+pharmacy&as_epq=10000+iu&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=.nz

I don’t know what LH/FSH is or if going to zero is good or not? I’ll try to research it.
Yes when I went from orals to injecting Sustanon my family jewels shrunk… Can I ask, what does that mean?

Orals are working brilliantly for me… I was told by a doctor that they weren’t great for your cardiovascular sytem? Is this true?

As far as the liver goes, the orals “bypass the destructive first-pass through liver” so hopefully wont be an issue for the liver long term?

Is this the case because if they are safe I would rather just stay on them… They are working brillitantly for me…
Or are injectables definitely the way to go???

Cheers for the read on hCG in NZ

Liver: watch ALT/AST levels

When you did sust and shut down, your LH/FSH went to zero. So we know that you are not shutdown now. You need lab data. ALT/AST–>0 is a normal and expected effect from TRT. hCG prevents shrinkage etc. Reaction to sust seems to confirm the suspicion that your oral T is not creating decent T levels. But noted that you feel OK with this.

What are you paying for your oral T?

No cost… It’s government funded in NZ!

wow, allopurinol, cheers that was a good read…
Only been on it for a couple of months… I think being over weight was finally starting to catch up with me…
Cholesterol was starting to get a little high.
Gout had set in… I had to take the allopurinol to stop the gout which I was getting 24/7. I didn’t have a choice… Im hoping as the fat keeps coming off, I’ll be able to stop taking it…
I hate taking meds of any sort if I can help it…
cheers for that link KSman…

I think if the orals are not shutting me down completely that has to be a good thing surely… It might pay for me to stay on the orals long term if I can…

If you feel great and your liver and cardiovascular markers are good, that’s all that matters. I wouldn’t worry about LH/FSH levels.

Many men feel good on TRT without being shut down completely, and that is not a bad thing, especially if they are primary hypogonadal (in that case their LH/FSH are often very elevated pre-TRT and then go down to more normal levels on TRT).

[quote]seekonk wrote:
If you feel great and your liver and cardiovascular markers are good, that’s all that matters. I wouldn’t worry about LH/FSH levels.

Many men feel good on TRT without being shut down completely, and that is not a bad thing, especially if they are primary hypogonadal (in that case their LH/FSH are often very elevated pre-TRT and then go down to more normal levels on TRT). [/quote]

Thank you Seekonk,
The only thing that worries me is I haven’t come across any long term users of oral test.
should have thought to just google it, which is what Im doing now…
I might start a new thread dedicated soley to the info I seek on long term taking of oral test…

Seekonk, is it possible to take the injectable form of testosterone with out being shut down completely… Or is this only possible with orals?

Hi KSman, just had blood pressure done at pharmacy as per your instructions… Weird result.

SYS 127 and DIA 55, Pulse 72… I thought that was quite good… 5 min late I did it again for the hell of it… Sys 149 DIA 96 and Pulse 69.

Stuffed if I know, screwy machine… Might try it again some where else…

New test, Sys - 137 & DIA - 81 and Pulse 66

Is this normal to be all over the place like this???

I’m on year 11. I’d be in far worse health without it.

[quote]happy_Ed wrote:
Seekonk, is it possible to take the injectable form of testosterone with out being shut down completely… Or is this only possible with orals?[/quote]

I am not a doctor, but I would think it would all depend on dose. If I were you, I would have my T and E levels tested now while you feel brilliant so that if you should change to injections in future you can adjust your dosage to get the same levels.