[quote]eic wrote:
pushmepullme wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
Because there is an army of Indians being trained as we speak in American law.
Who still can’t enter an appearance in court.
Outsource things like wills. It’s been done for years. And it’s been done shittily, which means more work for American estate attorneys. And anyone with any money, knows this.
I am with you 100%, pmpm.
I find it interesting that many of you are shitting on criminal work. All the attorneys I know who do criminal law—whether defense or prosecution—love their jobs. I would much rather do that than civil litigation (what I’m doing now). Better yet would be criminal appellate work. I’m crossing my fingers that I can get into that someday soon. [/quote]
Sorry,
Was in law enforcement for 9 years before I went to school so I’m pretty biased. I had to get away from that whole realm, it was warping me. The current lady in my life is a US Probation Officer. She wants to shoot everybody, just like I used to. I made friends w/ a lot of criminal defense guys while I was a bailiff. Most are pretty decent people. They all have the same complaint, their clients don’t want to pay.
I agree with what PMPM said. You let your integrity affect your job, not vice versa. Law is like any other profession, it’s filled with good people and scumbags. With the present state of the economy it will help if you have a connection for a job. I sent out close to a hundred resumes before I finally found a job. I really enjoy law practice. I work for a guy who was solo for many years. We do just about everything other than family law.
Just make sure it’s something you really want to do. If your sole motivation is money, I’d look at some other career choices. I’ve seen attorneys who make good money and end up leaving for another profession because they just couldn’t stand it anymore.
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
Yeah, ok man. Indians can’t possibly learn how to craft routine, boilerplate contracts. Gotta hire the local American who costs 300% more.[/quote]
Few lawyers draft routine, boilerplate contracts anymore. The best paid lawyers are giving advice, not typing up documents. As advice givers, they are not at risk for outsourcing to a lower bidder. You value advice because you value the person giving it, their experience and judgment, what they know and what they can do to back it up. That can’t be outsourced–never will.
Also, every state has made it illegal to practice law (including merely giving advice) in that state without a license issued by the state. Attorneys (or others) from any other state (let alone another country) cannot effectively compete with those in-state attorneys given the legal monopoly each state has created within its borders.
Then there’s litigation, which cannot be outsourced–you have to “stand at the bar” to represent.
Law firms have already outsourced lots of routine work to places like India, so any damage from outsourcing has already occurred and is not likely to result in the end of lawyers as we know them. Law.com
[quote]super saiyan wrote:
I agree with what PMPM said. You let your integrity affect your job, not vice versa. Law is like any other profession, it’s filled with good people and scumbags. With the present state of the economy it will help if you have a connection for a job. I sent out close to a hundred resumes before I finally found a job. I really enjoy law practice. I work for a guy who was solo for many years. We do just about everything other than family law.
Just make sure it’s something you really want to do. If your sole motivation is money, I’d look at some other career choices. I’ve seen attorneys who make good money and end up leaving for another profession because they just couldn’t stand it anymore.[/quote]
A huge misconception that people have with attorneys is that all of them are rich. People told me that they have 80-90,000 dollars in debt. I know one who complains that he has to eat mac and cheese at nite for dinner so he can save money. this all boils down to why you want to practice law. Is this correct? I love researching and figuring out things. I love to read so this is right up my alley.
A question that I have why are court documents filled with old English phrases. Why do they still do this?
[quote]rickbenn wrote:
super saiyan wrote:
I agree with what PMPM said. You let your integrity affect your job, not vice versa. Law is like any other profession, it’s filled with good people and scumbags. With the present state of the economy it will help if you have a connection for a job. I sent out close to a hundred resumes before I finally found a job. I really enjoy law practice. I work for a guy who was solo for many years. We do just about everything other than family law.
Just make sure it’s something you really want to do. If your sole motivation is money, I’d look at some other career choices. I’ve seen attorneys who make good money and end up leaving for another profession because they just couldn’t stand it anymore.
A huge misconception that people have with attorneys is that all of them are rich. People told me that they have 80-90,000 dollars in debt. I know one who complains that he has to eat mac and cheese at nite for dinner so he can save money. this all boils down to why you want to practice law. Is this correct? I love researching and figuring out things. I love to read so this is right up my alley.
A question that I have why are court documents filled with old English phrases. Why do they still do this?
[/quote]
The archaic language of the common law is slowly giving way to a plain English movement. Some of the Latin phrases used in legal documents have particular meaning that is more precisely conveyed when using Latin, but even use of these phrases is waining.
Trust me - I don’t shit on crim. I thought about doing it, I’m a big “right to counsel” fan. I just empathize too much, and know it wouldn’t be good for me and my personality. I really appreciate the people who can work with individuals going through the shittiest times of their lives, and I know I couldn’t do that.
I just call it dirty work because it deals with humans, instead of land and corporations.[/quote]
Yeah, I feel you. I have four friends (one male, three females) who are criminal attorneys: three prosecutors and one public defender. (I used to date one of the prosecutors and the public defender.) All four love their jobs. I can hear it in their voices when we talk. All the young attorneys in my firm, with perhaps one or two exceptions, clearly want out.
About a year ago I went to a new attorney orientation day at my local bar association. (I never had the opportunity, because I was clerking out of state.) Anyway, the panels consisted of in-house/corporate counsel, civil litigators, criminal attorneys, and appellate attorneys. Pretty much everyone was boring and seemed to have no passion for their job except the criminal attorneys and, to a lesser extent, the appellate attorneys. I will never forget the disparity I saw that day. But you’re right, if your personality is wrong for it, criminal work will crush you.
Regarding outsourcing wills and such, keep in mind that drafting the document is only half the battle. A good attorney will be able to counsel the client on the best options for him or her, which can maximize their wealth, avoid probate if desired, etc. This requires an intellectual acumen and imagination that cannot necessarily be taught and is definitely not fostered by an assembly-line approach to law.
There’s a fucking glut of lawyers in this country, just as demand for their services in the financial industry plummets and more menial tasks are going to be outsourced.
Is there a need for skilled lawyers? Yes.
Are you likely to be a skilled lawyer? Probably not.
Not a lawyer/law student yet, but I’m taking an LSAT prep course at the moment and MAN is it helpful.
I used to hate the ‘logic games’ section of the LSAT. Now I love that part and I hate the ‘arguments’ section. The games questions have only one correct answer. The arguments part normally has two that ‘could’ work, but only one that is best and ‘correct’ (by LSAT standards).
My problem is I consistently choose the ‘almost-but-not-quite’ answer 'cuz I overthink the passage and/or get too involved in the situation. It sucks because I have no problem eliminating the obviously wrong answers, but when I’m stuck with the final two my subconscious argues with itself when trying to determine which is ‘best’.
Apologies for the slightly off-topic rant, but it’s killing my LSAT mojo and maybe some of you have a suggestion or two for how to quit getting tripped up. It should be easy to just not overthink, right? But for whatever reason I end up wasting precious time on questions that should be quick and easy and breezing through the tough ones with no issues whatsoever.
law school was good for me. There are however many (too many) lawyers out there now and it is starting to effect the business. I graduated over ten years ago and many of my classmates from Wayne are not in law anymore. Some are installing hardwood floors. some are selling real estate.
Some went into the family business. There are several who are doing really well, but many are doing ok after borrowing 100k. in the patent world, there is a lot of pressure to use Indians to prepare the drafts. I think more of that work will be outsourced.
And that’s where a lot of super star patent attorneys get their start. document review was another activity that first year grads used to do that is being outsourced to india or in the us for 20 bucks an hour. If you can’t get into a top school, get your degree with as little debt as possible. and don’t believe the law school numbers re percentage of people who are working. In this market, the numbers can not be that high.
[quote]eic wrote:
I personally think it is a terrible time to go to/graduate from law school. The market is absolutely flooded with attorneys and, without turning this into a Politics and World Issues thread, I don’t see the economy getting any better anytime soon while Obama is in power. Unless you are going to a top law school, or have some connections, I would think seriously about pursuing something else if you have any inkling outside of law. [/quote]
I should have added having the right connection helps. Jobs are tight. If you have a family friend or family member in a position to give you a job, you should be in good shape.
[quote]davidcox1 wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
Why do you all act like everyone is going to be a “good attorney”? Most people are average by definition.
What is waining?
It’s the opposite of waxing. The moon, for example, waxes and wanes. Gets bigger and then gets smaller. Waining is the act of getting smaller. [/quote]
I like that it was wanes and then became waining ;p
I’m a law graduate. Found out I passed the Bar a few weeks ago, and will be admitted in January.
Fortunately for me I work in my firm’s labor/employment department. There seems to be a never-ending amount of work in this field.
Even in this tough economy, labor and employment work is always available. When people get fired, they may be more likely to utilize/invoke their legal rights and file suit.
The EEOC recently reported a record year for discrimination charges. More work for me thank god.
[quote]Rev1911 wrote:
My problem is I consistently choose the ‘almost-but-not-quite’ answer 'cuz I overthink the passage and/or get too involved in the situation. It sucks because I have no problem eliminating the obviously wrong answers, but when I’m stuck with the final two my subconscious argues with itself when trying to determine which is ‘best’.
Apologies for the slightly off-topic rant, but it’s killing my LSAT mojo and maybe some of you have a suggestion or two for how to quit getting tripped up. It should be easy to just not overthink, right? But for whatever reason I end up wasting precious time on questions that should be quick and easy and breezing through the tough ones with no issues whatsoever. [/quote]
Which company’s course are you taking? I used to teach the LSAT for Kaplan, but it does not sound like you’re with them. Kaplan consistently reinforced that there is only 1 correct answer and 4 answers that have flaws. With this issue, the best approach would be to find a teacher that can give you good answers as to why the very difficult option for you to eliminate is actually wrong. It can be very tough to do this, even if someone has scored very well on the LSAT.
Also, as you are aware, time management is critical on the LSAT. Having taught it, I saw two “humps” for students to get over. The first is basic mastery of the content to where they have a shot at getting the difficult questions right and can approach every question in a methodical manner. The second is timing (i.e. making appropriate use of the time allowed).
To the OP, whether or not law school is worth it is a question that requires an analysis of a myriad of factors. Paying sticker price for a fourth tier school in an area of the country you do not want to work in is light years away from getting a scholarship to a top-14 school. Personally, I could not imagine dropping out after having gone through the first semester, as it is way too much work to put in not to have anything to show for it later. However, if I were paying $40k a year plus living expenses to go to school and KNEW that I did not want to be a lawyer, I might drop out and start looking for work.
I am in law school now and am absolutely loving it.
[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
I’m a law graduate. Found out I passed the Bar a few weeks ago, and will be admitted in January.
Fortunately for me I work in my firm’s labor/employment department. There seems to be a never-ending amount of work in this field.
Even in this tough economy, labor and employment work is always available. When people get fired, they may be more likely to utilize/invoke their legal rights and file suit.
The EEOC recently reported a record year for discrimination charges. More work for me thank god. [/quote]
Congratulations on passing the bar! Was it the New York Bar? Probably the hardest one out there, as you know.
[quote]davidcox1 wrote:
MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
I’m a law graduate. Found out I passed the Bar a few weeks ago, and will be admitted in January.
Fortunately for me I work in my firm’s labor/employment department. There seems to be a never-ending amount of work in this field.
Even in this tough economy, labor and employment work is always available. When people get fired, they may be more likely to utilize/invoke their legal rights and file suit.
The EEOC recently reported a record year for discrimination charges. More work for me thank god.
Congratulations on passing the bar! Was it the New York Bar? Probably the hardest one out there, as you know.[/quote]
Thanks man. Yes, it was the NYS Bar.
I wasn’t aware actually that NY had the hardest bar exam. Only thing I heard was that massachusetts was easy (an associate called it the Passachusetts Bar) and that Louisiana was ridiculous because they follow the French Civil Code (I believe that’s what it’s called, could be wrong though).
[quote]Brayton wrote:
I’m having a good time as a 1L in law school but I’m wondering whether it’s worth it in terms of finances and my own personal integrity. I’d like to hear from some other law students and lawyers here about their personal experiences.
[/quote]