Any Judo Players Here?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Quick question to judo guys. I tried playing with google before coming here but all I got were Greco-Roman VS judo threads or Is Greco Or Judo better in mma.

What I’m trying to figure out is, basically, if the body lock and suplex style throws used in Greco Roman allowed in Judo.

I ask because I was watching a clip where the GR grabbed the wrist (obviously happens in Judo) pulled it across between their bodies (again something that is the set up for at least a few throws) but then sort of stepped to the shoulder side of the arm he’d pulled, trapped it by bear hugging the opponent low on the waist then (obviously since it’s GR) using no leg attack, simply lifted the other guy up, pivoted his body to the horizontal and drove his head/shoulders into the matt hard enough to get a knockout.

It really looked Judo-ish minus some kind of leg reap, sweep, trip, etc. So then I started to get curious if belly to belly and belly to back suplexes were legal in Judo.

Does anyone have any insight on how body lock throw rules work in tournaments?

2

They used to be is the quick answer. GR and Judo are very close in style and concept. Remember that in judo they put a premium on throwing the opponent to there back, receiving a full point. Traditional judo is fading in America, due the the judo association trying to make it more entertaining to watch. This drives me crazy, having been trained in Kodokan Judo from a early age I find it difficult to stomach a lot of what they now stress in dojos across America. Back to the question, I feel you would benefit from both but just realize the limitations of a lot of judo techniques are based on the use of the Gi. With GR a Gi is not incorporated so much of what you learn is directly usable in the MMA ring.

The Con of GR is there are generally not a lot of opponents around to practice with, while Judokas of every shape and size abound in every major city. Current tournament rules are not allowing any variation of a body lock type throw as far as I am aware. Don’t take this as gospel because I am currently not training judo. Hope this helps

3

Thanks, I appreciate that. Sounds like you must be at least in the ball park as that was the closest I’ve been able to find to an answer in all my google-fu.

It is too bad if true IMO simply because I hate to see anything good and solid modified to make it more glittery to the public, Turning rough-n-tumble judo into point TKD or circus Kung Fu seems sad.

Frankly I think it would be more entertaining to watch if it were rougher, not less so. I realize that still leaves plenty of throws left but just the general attitude you describe is a bummer.

Thanks.

4

Go on judovideo.net and check out Utsuri-goshi (NOT tsurigoshi) or ushiro goshi, I think they might be pretty close to what you’re describing. As far as I know they are legal techniques. The only thing about these techniques is they are counters for other koshiwaza. You could try using one as an attack, but you’d probably get uchimatad in the setup

5

Holy shit, LOL! That was exactly what I saw. I had to punch it into google and youtube it because my laptop wasn’t working on that site but the video was freakin’ awesome.

It looked like Utsuri-goshi is the great, simple counter to any throw where the attacker moves his hips into you. Could you image hitting someone with that one a sidewalk?

Wow. That was great thanks.

6

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Holy shit, LOL! That was exactly what I saw. I had to punch it into google and youtube it because my laptop wasn’t working on that site but the video was freakin’ awesome.

It looked like Utsuri-goshi is the great, simple counter to any throw where the attacker moves his hips into you. Could you image hitting someone with that one a sidewalk?

Wow. That was great thanks.[/quote]

yeah you could just use an illegal technique like Te Guruma or Kata Guruma. i think a Kata Guruma would probably kill someone on the sidewalk

7

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Holy shit, LOL! That was exactly what I saw. I had to punch it into google and youtube it because my laptop wasn’t working on that site but the video was freakin’ awesome.

It looked like Utsuri-goshi is the great, simple counter to any throw where the attacker moves his hips into you. Could you image hitting someone with that one a sidewalk?

Wow. That was great thanks.[/quote]

yeah you could just use an illegal technique like Te Guruma or Kata Guruma. i think a Kata Guruma would probably kill someone on the sidewalk[/quote]

I actually think Morote Gari would be the most likely thrown to do that (provided that it’s done like Mifune Sensei did it, with the quick lift to unweighted the feet and then reaping out both legs with the arms) due to how the opponent falls straight backwards onto their shoulders/head. Most people aren’t explicitly trained to keep their chins tucked when they fall backwards and even if you are, you may land on it anyway if the throw is done violently enough.

A belly to back of belly to belly suplex could definitely do it too of course, but those are much higher risk throws in a real fight.

8

Everyone forgets Morote Gari, good point about being risky in a real fight though Sento.

9

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Holy shit, LOL! That was exactly what I saw. I had to punch it into google and youtube it because my laptop wasn’t working on that site but the video was freakin’ awesome.

It looked like Utsuri-goshi is the great, simple counter to any throw where the attacker moves his hips into you. Could you image hitting someone with that one a sidewalk?

Wow. That was great thanks.[/quote]

yeah you could just use an illegal technique like Te Guruma or Kata Guruma. i think a Kata Guruma would probably kill someone on the sidewalk[/quote]

I actually think Morote Gari would be the most likely thrown to do that (provided that it’s done like Mifune Sensei did it, with the quick lift to unweighted the feet and then reaping out both legs with the arms) due to how the opponent falls straight backwards onto their shoulders/head. Most people aren’t explicitly trained to keep their chins tucked when they fall backwards and even if you are, you may land on it anyway if the throw is done violently enough.

A belly to back of belly to belly suplex could definitely do it too of course, but those are much higher risk throws in a real fight.[/quote]

I’ve never been in a real fight so of course i don’t really know, but i would think most people would instinctively react to Morote Gari by trying to over hook one or both arms and lean over you to push you down. You could still muscle through the reap but I just picture them landing on the low back in this scenario. I can’t understand anyone trying to backstep out of it. Of course if you used it in some combination to force them to backstep it usually wouldn’t fail

10

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]pulphero wrote:
Holy shit, LOL! That was exactly what I saw. I had to punch it into google and youtube it because my laptop wasn’t working on that site but the video was freakin’ awesome.

It looked like Utsuri-goshi is the great, simple counter to any throw where the attacker moves his hips into you. Could you image hitting someone with that one a sidewalk?

Wow. That was great thanks.[/quote]

yeah you could just use an illegal technique like Te Guruma or Kata Guruma. i think a Kata Guruma would probably kill someone on the sidewalk[/quote]

I actually think Morote Gari would be the most likely thrown to do that (provided that it’s done like Mifune Sensei did it, with the quick lift to unweighted the feet and then reaping out both legs with the arms) due to how the opponent falls straight backwards onto their shoulders/head. Most people aren’t explicitly trained to keep their chins tucked when they fall backwards and even if you are, you may land on it anyway if the throw is done violently enough.

A belly to back of belly to belly suplex could definitely do it too of course, but those are much higher risk throws in a real fight.[/quote]

I’ve never been in a real fight so of course i don’t really know, but i would think most people would instinctively react to Morote Gari by trying to over hook one or both arms and lean over you to push you down. You could still muscle through the reap but I just picture them landing on the low back in this scenario. I can’t understand anyone trying to backstep out of it. Of course if you used it in some combination to force them to backstep it usually wouldn’t fail[/quote]

A good solid punch/palm smash to the nose/chin, finger whip to the eyes, cup of liquid to the face, headbutt, etc… will generally make it less likely that someone is going to have enough time to overhook your arms or body lock you.

You also don’t need or necessarily even want a big lift with Morote to make it effective (at least in a real scenario, in a grappling match where the opponent is expecting you to try to take them down and only has to worry about takedowns things are different). You really only need to lift enough that the opponent’s feet get light on the ground, then it’s just a sudden reap/sweep of both legs with the arms and a bow/shoulder pressure with the upper torso. The result is a much more sudden and straight drop to the ground rather than a big lift and slam. Both methods work of course, and if you are a very big, strong, and/or powerful person the big lift can be devastating, but it also gives the opponent time to attempt to counter.

11

In 1983 I used it in a regional qualifier in the final match. Knocked the other guy out , got a excessive force penalty and forfeiture of the match. Instead of gold got bronze. He got the gold, and his bell rung pretty good but he had it coming.

12

great thread.

Have not been in here in a while- and I find this gem.
I cant add much to this- as you guys tore this up.

I played judo for a long time and love me some greco roman
played that too thru college and beyond- so this thread hit the spot.
I was lucky enough to train in some cool places- and with some different people over the years
and got to play and train them both at the same time- early and mid 90’s you could pretty much mix and match at will

right now you wouldn’t use morote gari or kata guruma in a proper judo tournament
which is sad- as they are pretty basic- and really can show some good defense and counters
people bust out some beautiful uchi-mata these throws used to happen

utsuri-goshi - I think is still legal

don’t get me started how the rules have made GR un-playable.
and definitely dont get me started on grip rules in Judo

13

[quote]kmcnyc wrote

don’t get me started how the rules have made GR un-playable.
and definitely dont get me started on grip rules in Judo
[/quote]
Had a workout partner go to a tournament last weekend (going for his black belt) and get this there where last minute changes to the rules. Even the ref’s where mad about it.
( the competator may not attempt any feints, this results in a 1/2 point deduction. Also the competator may not utilize combination throws without fully attempting the first throw. This can result in a half point deduction) A competator receiving three warnings( 1/2 point deductions ) will forfeit the match. There was a whole lot more to it that what I wrote but you get the idea. This is why I walked away from Judo , to many rules. When I started there where like three pages in the rules now the rule book is a dissertation. Judo was meant to be a self defence that could be practiced and shared as a sport. With each rule we get further away from our roots and thus reduce the effectiveness of the art in a self defence situation. Oh well you got me started. I think I bitched enough for both of us. If your ever up in northern michigan drop me a PM.

14

Wow! That is ridiculous Dude. I thought the elimination of any technique that involved directly grabbing the legs was lame (especially considering the increase in popularity of MMA and submission grappling), but that is just horrible. Talk about taking the strategy and finesse out of the sport.

15

[quote]Dude623 wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote

don’t get me started how the rules have made GR un-playable.
and definitely dont get me started on grip rules in Judo
[/quote]
Had a workout partner go to a tournament last weekend (going for his black belt) and get this there where last minute changes to the rules. Even the ref’s where mad about it.
( the competator may not attempt any feints, this results in a 1/2 point deduction. Also the competator may not utilize combination throws without fully attempting the first throw. This can result in a half point deduction) A competator receiving three warnings( 1/2 point deductions ) will forfeit the match. There was a whole lot more to it that what I wrote but you get the idea. This is why I walked away from Judo , to many rules. When I started there where like three pages in the rules now the rule book is a dissertation. Judo was meant to be a self defence that could be practiced and shared as a sport. With each rule we get further away from our roots and thus reduce the effectiveness of the art in a self defence situation. Oh well you got me started. I think I bitched enough for both of us. If your ever up in northern michigan drop me a PM. [/quote]

you might be interested in freestyle judo. All the classic techniques are allowed, all grips are legal (also no time limit on holding a cross grip) and the rules focus on what really matters. NO MORE ROLLING IPPONS! ippons have to be hard to count. there’s also a different scoring system and you can’t win a match with osaekomi, they just earn points. there’s a list of clubs doing this here: International Freestyle Judo Alliance – Freestyle Judo, this site lists all the rules too

that site lists a lot of the rules too

16

FPD -Thanks you just opened a door for me.