Amusing quote from Schopenhauer regarding entropy.
Well, shit is inevitably going to happen- heck, I nearly lost a kidney in 2019. It’s willingness to add shit on top of shit for 18+ years
Yeah but if it’s not your child it’s happening to, then it’s your spouse, sibling, parent, grandparent, cousin, friend, coworker, neighbor, classmate, etc. Stuff happens to everyone, but I don’t feel that that means we should avoid relationships (I mean all relationships, not romantic ones) out of fear of pain.
My parents have 5 children. Sticking solely to my story, I gave them hell when my first sibling was born. I’d been an only child for 7 years and did not adjust well. I’ve had a few injuries. I got expelled from my high school. I got my girlfriend pregnant. That right there is just about every parent’s nightmare, haha.
I am pretty sure that in spite of that stuff, they are both glad to have had me and feel that I have added something good to their lives. If I died tonight I think they would be heartbroken, but I’m pretty sure they would be grateful for the time together rather than saying, “Would’ve been better if he’d never been born.”
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Well it can’t be amoral from a human perspective, unless you are totally indifferent to the suffering of others. A life you don’t create can’t experience suffering, a life you do create surely will. If you agree that inflicting suffering on someone when you don’t have to is immoral, then having kids is a no go. I think antinatalism is entirely logical if you believe we are all here by chance and nothing more.
Of course, in a completely mechanical and deterministic universe, your decision to procreate or not is just a result of dumb mechanical processes that have been going on ever since the big bang. However vast and hard to understand they are, these processes were always going to result in you choosing to procreate (or not), so it’s not really your decision at all. A completely mechanical universe that came out of nothing (to paraphrase Lawrence Krauss), would mean humans don’t really have free will.
Well you know, experiences or events do not have to be black or white. Like the gym. It is both pelasurable and unpleasurable. Do you enjoy take a set of Bulgarian Split Squat to failure and roll on the ground in pain? Exercise hurts and procures pleasure.
Do you love 100% of everything you at the university? The long cramming when you’re tired and stressed? At the same time don’t love learning thing and being a part of the process and discoveries?
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Good point, I forgot that. Not all pain is bad (stress of raising children) and for that matter, I don’t think all pleasure is good.
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Just for the record, predetermination and morality are mutually exclusive. It’s contradictory to believe everything is predetermined and that anything is either moral or immoral (which requires choice).
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I live in a first world country. There are struggles and there are heart wrenching moments like death of loved ones. For most people in first world countries, you are living better than newrly all other humans who have ever existed, it is practically free of suffering (your final years may suck), has an abundance of opportunity and if you can rip yourself away from your phone, is pretty great.
If you don’t want children, okay but you are very unlikely to bring a new person into a terrible existence and who knows, they may help bring people in 3rd world countries closer to first world and enrich the lives of millions.
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Kids bring the highest highs and the lowest lows.
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Young people are more miserable now then ever, despite every indicator pointing to better life “quality”. I look back and think I was probably more miserable than I cared to admit, at least compared to my life with children.
I’d have my kids in my twenties in a heartbeat now that I have full visibility. It kinda gets to me that they are not adults now that I am older and we could do adult stuff together before time starts to slow me down.
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Yeah I can relate. Honestly at this point I’m just wondering why I’m not quitting this job that is making me miserable even though I have no money. probably the mental relief will make more active and I won’t end up a hobo anyway
But for sure I want kids sometimes. But I don’t see doing it untiI gain a decent amount of money. I don’t want to have them experiencing a youth of “poverty” (or rather that I’d spend everything for them and have nothing for me to enjoy but making them happy)
THat’s not what I meant. I feel that I am not obligated to have kids BECAUSE billions of others don’t agree with me. If everyone did, there’s be problems…
I guess what I mean by “not understand” is that the feeling of “overwhelming love” hasn’t/ can’t be clearly explained to me. I learn by experience, example or by google scholar.
Parents who talk about not getting sleep bc kids keep them up might not be complaining, but I hear that and think: sleep deprivation. I’ve experienced how crappy even mild sleep deprivation can be and want to avoid that as much as possible. Sure, work causes sleep deprivation, but it’s usually temporary or due to lack of time management or bc the person is really passionate or it’s necessary (ie choosing between crap job and destitution- usually exacerbated by having children).
By the way, this lack of understanding of feelings is a large reason I study behavioural science. I might not agree that it’s worth the time to spend time and money on a dead person, but there’s more than enough evidence to show the benefits/necessity of grieving for the living
@jshaving @aldebaran of course not all pain is bad and shit happens, but pain from a physical/mental pursuit or disasters are different imo.
In the case of a physical or mental pursuit, I’ve experienced the benefits myself and there’s overwhelming academic consensus touting the benefits of exercise. There are even some things in that category I don’t quite understand the appeal of, but usually there’s some neuroscience paper somewhere that provides a decent enough explanation
In the case of shit happening, no one seeks those out on purpose. They come, are inevitable and most ppl seek to avoid them when possible. Having children is mor or less entirely voluntary and many families pay exorbitant amounts for it. Most ppl would pay exorbitant amounts NOT to experience a disaster or loss of a loved one, hence insurance and depression after loss
This ignores the aspects of ones life that are positive. I don’t agree that life is necessarily tilted more towards suffering than positive aspects like pleasure, accomplishment, friendship, romantic love… Perhaps it is more negative for some, but it isn’t a given.
Based on what you have said, I don’t see a difference in logic (in regards to morality) on wither or not to have children based on if the universe is a product of chance, vs a something else. Why does it matter?
I don’t think you are justified in your belief that determinism and free will are mutually exclusive. Some of this stuff seems to come down to how we define free will, but I think if we take a definition of free will similar to autonomy, then I think free will and determinism are compatible with each other.
My brother and I are 100% responsible for destroying my parent’s marriage and are the reason mum still can’t get a good night’s sleep (she never got over the “waking up to feed baby” instinct, even after nearly 2 decades. Quite a few of her friends are the same)
Getting up several times a night to feed the kids was brutal. My wife didn’t work so she did it most of the time. I’d get up on the weekends so she could get some solid sleep. There is nothing as gut-wrenching as not being able to console your crying baby (except losing your child). At the same time there is nothing that is even close to being as rewarding as having your kid hug you. There is no way to describe the pure joy. Highest highs, lowest lows. I’m bipolar and at times I’ve been medicated to where life was pretty much a flat line. That is my idea of pure hell. I’ll take the highs and lows any day.
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My mum worked and she still had to do it most of the time (Dad’s idea of family responsibility is very different from what is considered a “good dad” by current US standards)
You sure on your former statement? 
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If she hand’t had us, there wouldn’t be this issue.
Dad didn’t help out b/c because it wasn’t/isn’t the cultural norm. Mum only became resentful when she made more American friends (actual friends, not just work colleagues) and realized that their husbands helped out a LOT more than my dad, and because my little bro and I would share stories of other kid’s dads
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I am not antinatalist but am fairly certain I will remain childfree. No doubt it is necessary for some people to have kids, and I am fortunate that many are willing to do so. I am passionate about helping young people; I feel I can do this without having my own kids. I also have no desire experience pregnancy (honestly doubt my body could even handle it). I also know next to zero of my own medical history, so there’s also that.
Not to step on anyone’s toes too much, but it’s far easier to romanticize parenthood in a heterosexual relationship as a father. The household has become less egalitarian over the past few decades despite women’s advances in the workplace. Unfortunately, in most cases women end up taking on most of the childrearing duties. Men, even liberally-minded ones, think they do more than in reality. I don’t mean that men do absolutely nothing, and certainly there are exceptional men out there. I applaud them. But many men do not understand the emotional labor mothering requires. It’s a societal issue.
More on the topic at hand – I’m surprised the climate crisis has not been mentioned.
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When my first wife and I divorced, I got full custody of my son… I have four additional step-sons now. My wife gets them up and ready for school, then she works in the evenings. After school I supervise homework, I cook them dinner, I get them to soccer, I make sure they do chores, I make sure they bathe, and I put them to bed. I have some idea of the emotional labor involved. Wouldn’t trade it for anything.
I never wanted to be a parent. I was beat and belittled every day of my life and that is a pattern than goes back generations. I’m the first in a long line of crazy people in my family to be medicated. I was going to make sure it all ended with me. But God laughs at our plans. I really wish I had spent more time thinking about what kind of father I WANTED to be versus what I DIDN’T want to be. I’m not a great dad at all, but I know my sons will be.
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