T Nation

Anti-Estrogen for HRT 250-300mg?


#1

I read that broccoli and white mushrooms are natural anti-estrogen/anti-aromatase foods as well as zinc supplementation but how much of that would you need to consume?


#2

do you have any blood tests showing high estradiol? any major symptoms?

is your cortisol level ideal?

have you test and confirmed ideal thyroid function?

Broccoli (DIM component) and Zinc are good, but can only do so much.


#3

[quote]PureChance wrote:
do you have any blood tests showing high estradiol? any major symptoms?

is your cortisol level ideal?

have you test and confirmed ideal thyroid function?

Broccoli (DIM component) and Zinc are good, but can only do so much.
[/quote]

My primary care physician did not order estradiol or cortisol numbers. He did have both total & free testosterone numbers tested.

I am being referred to a urologist but the earliest appointment available isn’t until June 2011. I’m betting my primary care physician isn’t thinking about high estrogen levels or cortisol affecting energy levels and I didn’t know to request those at the time of the blood work.


#4
  1. I would seriously be willing to bet $500 (heck maybe even a $1,000) that the Urologist will be of no help. Do a quick search for urologist in this forum and see how many have been helpful to those here. You need to find a local HRT doc. Have you read the finding a doc sticky? Have you called around to any local compounding pharmacies and asked for a referral?

  2. 200mg a week is crazy - and will drive your estradiol through the roof killing any possibility of symptom improvement. Have you read the injection protocol sticky? Do you know what your body does with excess T? like aromatise excess T to Estradiol. What do you think massive amounts of estrogen are going to do to you --> [quote]My numbers were significantly higher in next blood work ( around 1100ng/dl) but I felt like a lamb with no libido and practically no energy.[/quote]

  3. you will never recapture that initial feeling. just like a drug user trying to recapture the initial high. It is transitory and not sustainable.

  4. I would recommend considering reducing your dose greatly down to 50mg E3D PLUS you really really really need to get some additional blood tests. Have you read the Blood test sticky?


#5

Face-palm.

Read the stickies. Read the stickies.

You cannot control estrogen with herbals, 250-300 mg Depo-testosterone would make that vastly impossible.

Do not use the term anti-estrogen, you will know why when you do the reading. SERMs VS aromatase inhibitors [AI].


#6

Actually ksman one can control them with herbals provided that the root cause is properly determined. I have alot of guys off AI even at 200 mgs a week who have came off no effect. I am currently off AI which I was on for over 4 years. They where just suppressing my IGF-1 and other lipid parameters where altered.

I would only recommend this be done once the imbalances have been identified through clincal testing. When dealing with dr’s patients I always look to why this is occuring through lifestyle, nutrition, and comprehensive cellular testing. If after 6-8 weeks no response then Aromasin is used which is far superior then adex in several areas.


#7

“Aromasin is used which is far superior then adex in several areas”

Please provide links or proof. Else an unsubstantiated claim. At what cost differential?

What root causes can be fixed to allow everyone on TRT not not need an AI to get optimal levels.

What does your group consider an optimal level of E2 while on TRT?

“I have alot of guys off AI even at 200 mgs a week who have came off no effect”
So no effect, stop AI and E2 levels do not increase? Oh, here is the catch “only recommend this be done once the imbalances have been identified through clinical testing” - so this can only be done by you. How about something that can be of broader adoption.


#8

[quote]PureChance wrote:

  1. I would seriously be willing to bet $500 (heck maybe even a $1,000) that the Urologist will be of no help. Do a quick search for urologist in this forum and see how many have been helpful to those here. You need to find a local HRT doc. Have you read the finding a doc sticky? Have you called around to any local compounding pharmacies and asked for a referral?

  2. 200mg a week is crazy - and will drive your estradiol through the roof killing any possibility of symptom improvement. Have you read the injection protocol sticky? Do you know what your body does with excess T? like aromatise excess T to Estradiol. What do you think massive amounts of estrogen are going to do to you --> [quote]My numbers were significantly higher in next blood work ( around 1100ng/dl) but I felt like a lamb with no libido and practically no energy.[/quote]

  3. you will never recapture that initial feeling. just like a drug user trying to recapture the initial high. It is transitory and not sustainable.

  4. I would recommend considering reducing your dose greatly down to 50mg E3D PLUS you really really really need to get some additional blood tests. Have you read the Blood test sticky?[/quote]

I plead no contest. I am mentally challenged and don’t really understand what a sticky veruses these forum question & answers are. I will also add that you can read these forums for hours and still not make a dent in all that is posted. I may have to take off work for a month to read a few thousand.

Which blood test sticky can you point me to with an url…

… same with injection protocol sticky - what specifically there is just so much to go through and I only have so many hours to do so/

…and what specifically happens when massive amounts of estrogen form in your body? I don’t have man boobs, and don’t shave my nipples (that’s a joke actually I wear pasties so I don t have to shave them.)

I have good weight workouts and am seeing muscle develop. Nothing to write home about though. The libido is just not what it should be. Should I ask the primary care doctor to test estradiol levels in mean time?


#9

[quote]KSman wrote:
“Aromasin is used which is far superior then adex in several areas”

Please provide links or proof. Else an unsubstantiated claim. At what cost differential?

What root causes can be fixed to allow everyone on TRT not not need an AI to get optimal levels.

What does your group consider an optimal level of E2 while on TRT?

“I have alot of guys off AI even at 200 mgs a week who have came off no effect”
So no effect, stop AI and E2 levels do not increase? Oh, here is the catch “only recommend this be done once the imbalances have been identified through clinical testing” - so this can only be done by you. How about something that can be of broader adoption.

[/quote]

  1. Male that have been on armidex have had issues with lipid profiles despite proper lifestyle, and nutrition, and supplement intevention. Switching over aromasin have shown improvements in both IGF-1 and also lipid profiles. Since stopping armidex my igf-1 went from 128 to 300 my lipids went back into check.
  2. There is less of a rebound effect. People that have been using armidex for years have not been able to stablized. Swithcing from adex to aromasin resulting in going from 1-1.5 mgs a week to adex to 12.5 mgs every 3 -4 days.
  3. We have been swithcing people over to aromasin and the dr’s patients are giving positive feed back.

Through making modifications in diet, lifestyles, nutritional intervention e2 has been able to brought into proper balance in some cases. Guys on the boards do not tell the whole story. When all of the client’s information is proper analyzed then it obviously to why they have issues with e2 issues.


#10

stickies are the posts at the top of the thread with a yellow sticky note next to the title. The top 10? posts are stickied so they never move and are always at the top.

Those are the basic required reading assignments. The other posts are great and you can find amazing nuggets of information in them, but it does take a lot of time… but it is well worth it.


#11

[quote]Hardasnails wrote:

[quote]KSman wrote:
“Aromasin is used which is far superior then adex in several areas”

Please provide links or proof. Else an unsubstantiated claim. At what cost differential?

What root causes can be fixed to allow everyone on TRT not not need an AI to get optimal levels.

What does your group consider an optimal level of E2 while on TRT?

“I have alot of guys off AI even at 200 mgs a week who have came off no effect”
So no effect, stop AI and E2 levels do not increase? Oh, here is the catch “only recommend this be done once the imbalances have been identified through clinical testing” - so this can only be done by you. How about something that can be of broader adoption.

[/quote]

  1. Male that have been on armidex have had issues with lipid profiles despite proper lifestyle, and nutrition, and supplement intevention. Switching over aromasin have shown improvements in both IGF-1 and also lipid profiles. Since stopping armidex my igf-1 went from 128 to 300 my lipids went back into check.
  2. There is less of a rebound effect. People that have been using armidex for years have not been able to stablized. Swithcing from adex to aromasin resulting in going from 1-1.5 mgs a week to adex to 12.5 mgs every 3 -4 days.
  3. We have been swithcing people over to aromasin and the dr’s patients are giving positive feed back.

Through making modifications in diet, lifestyles, nutritional intervention e2 has been able to brought into proper balance in some cases. Guys on the boards do not tell the whole story. When all of the client’s information is proper analyzed then it obviously to why they have issues with e2 issues.
[/quote]

I can vouch for improvement with aromasin over arimidex…don’t want to inject too much of my case here, but ejaculations were instantly more voluminous and orgasms were much more intense…I am much happier with the result of aromasin vs arimidex…but I have not yet done E2 testing on aromasin so jury is still out…

Regarding controlling E2 with other factors, the guys on Crisler’s board are very big on ensuring Cortisol and Thyroid are optimized…I’ve noticed we broach that subject on this board, but rarely just scratch the surface…those guys give it way more stock–to the point of recommending optimizing cortisol and thyroid levels before even beginning TRT…

The theory is that if your cortisol production line and thyroid metabolism are not optimized, then, the extraneous T cannot be used optimally and will dump more readily to E2…supposedly if the other production lines are optimized, the T will be less susceptible to aromatization and can reduce or eliminate the need for AI.


#12

[quote]to the point of recommending optimizing cortisol and thyroid levels before even beginning TRT…
[/quote]

uhhhmmmm… hey there…

some of us have been advocating that here for awhile now… :wink:


#13

haha true PC…didnt mean to discredit you…but overall I feel this is more of a TRT focused forum (hence the name I guess, and makes sense for a site called Testosterone Nation) than an HRT focused forum…


#14

[quote]conservativedog wrote:
t to the point that I wondered if I had been ripped off by the pharmacist.[/quote]

Been there and called the pharmacy, nobody else was complaining so then I came here and learned the ‘lost feeling’ was due to high E2. Been at 20 for the last 2 labs and it has really helped me stay focused at my new job where I replaced a key person and had to hit the ground running…still running.

[quote]Hardasnails wrote:
They where just suppressing my IGF-1 and other lipid parameters where altered. [/quote]

I have a copy of William Llewellynâ??s Anabolics 2009 edition and he talks about E2 being protective of the cardovascular system.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
to the point of recommending optimizing cortisol and thyroid levels before even beginning TRT… [/quote]

For me personally I that just sounds like a can of works. My thyroid checked out fine last time but I understand both of these really require testing throughout the day but the doctors like to give me 50mg predisone, 100mg predisone, or IV solumedral all of which is synthetic coritisol. Whether I have too little or too much I think all bets are off. What would be the remedy for low cortisol other than more prednisone anyway ? I would like to never take that again.


#15

[quote]HiredGun wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
to the point of recommending optimizing cortisol and thyroid levels before even beginning TRT… [/quote]

For me personally I that just sounds like a can of works. My thyroid checked out fine last time but I understand both of these really require testing throughout the day but the doctors like to give me 50mg predisone, 100mg predisone, or IV solumedral all of which is synthetic coritisol. Whether I have too little or too much I think all bets are off. What would be the remedy for low cortisol other than more prednisone anyway ? I would like to never take that again.[/quote]

Optimally for the cortisol production line, you would supplement with pregnenolone or perhaps even progesterone (if preg was not converting down to cortisol)…you would need to be familiar with steroidgenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg) to fully understand why…


#16

HCG also drives conversion of Progesterone to 17-hydroxyprogesterone one of the primary paths needed to create Cortisol.

if you really want to get overwhelmed with all of the ezyme pathways check out this graph.
www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html


#17

[quote]PureChance wrote:
HCG also drives conversion of Progesterone to 17-hydroxyprogesterone one of the primary paths needed to create Cortisol.

if you really want to get overwhelmed with all of the ezyme pathways check out this graph.
www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html[/quote]

I do and thanks to both of you. I have pregnenolone on hand. Never really got a great feel from it and currently I am confused about that or HCG causing acne. I think high E2 + HCG resulted in acne/backne twice, I think pregnenolone is probably fine. If my cortisol drops it could account for my UC flares where gut inflammation gets out of control, I lose all 40 lbs of muscle gained in just weeks ( due to prescription prednisone ) and have wound up in the hospital thinking I was a gonner twice. Per the doctors there is no cure. I have never been able to figure out what can boost natural production of cortisol. So researching this could have a lot of upside for me. On the HCG front I tried to replenish my HCG from ADC but frankly I think I must have been crazy to go that route, not sure what I will do with it when it arrives.


#18

prednisone is a major medication, right? I think I’ve heard bad stories about how it can wreck people’s adrenals.

I had major problems with front and back acne when I was taking DHEA supplements + the DHEA was converting directly to Estradiol. I also had problem supplementing pregnenolone. Those just never worked for me.

for addrenal issues (low cortisol), people normally take hydrocortisone (build up to 20mg daily in split doses) - this is a simple replacement dose and lets your adrenals rest more.
Isocort is a really good OTC supplement that does a great job boosting Cortisol up to normal levels.

250iu HCG EOD should boost 17-hydroxyprogesterone.


#19

[quote]PureChance wrote:
HCG also drives conversion of Progesterone to 17-hydroxyprogesterone one of the primary paths needed to create Cortisol.

if you really want to get overwhelmed with all of the ezyme pathways check out this graph.
www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00140.html[/quote]

Thanks for that awesome link. It is so much easier for me to follow than trying to piece it all together from following multiple conversations. Just having the chain of cholesterol, Pregnenolone, progesterone et al in an organized chain helps me understand the role of each and where to start looking when a deficiency in one shows up. Following the T to E biosynthesis link spelled out so many of my issues in big letters. Caffeine clearance, High natural E2, drug sensitivity, fatty acid metabolism etc, all point to a cytochrome P450 issue. I have suspected this to be the case for some time, but enjoyed reading the reinforcement none the less.
Again, thank you for the very informative link.


#20

[quote]PureChance wrote:
prednisone is a major medication, right? I think I’ve heard bad stories about how it can wreck people’s adrenals.

[/quote]

It is and I thought it was the same thing as hydrocortisone. From a quick lookup prednisone, hydrocortisone, prednisolone are all similar to cortisol. They are all catabolic and also reduce immune inflammation ( my basic problem I am told is an immune system gone wild ).

So they all concern me because I know too well about the adrenal shutdown prednisone causes in just days/weeks. The main problem getting off prednisone is the taper, I have tapered too quickly and I have had adrenal shock until I figured it out and went back on predisone with a gentler taper off and softer landing.

That HCG reference looked interesting, going to research that too - Thanks!