T Nation

Anti-E on Cycle?

While expanding my knowledge on steroids, I always assumed that people only used Anti-Es, except in the case to not have testicular atrophy, after cycles. I come across the fact that estradiol and estrogen are essential in building serious muscle mass, but can also lead to gyno. I THINK gyno accumulates while on the cycle of a steroid that can aromatize, but I may be wrong.

My question is IF gyno accumulates while on a cycle with a steroid that can aromatize, do you use the Anti-Es on the cycle. I haven’t come across how often one should use Anti-Es, but in order to gain maximum benefit from the estrogen, shouldn’t one cut down on the dosage or frequency of dosage, but not too little to allow the negative side effects of estradiol?

My main concern for this is the fact that I think I may be pre-disposed to getting gyno, (I’ll upload a pic and ask if I had some small, but possible, gyno formation from puberty.) and my first cycle will probably some sort of Testosterone.

If I have any ideas\thoughts wrong, please state them.

Discuss!

The key is to use enough anti-e during a cycle to avoid the gyno and other ill effects of high estrogen while not overdoing it and hindering gains. For example at 500mg/week test you would probably be fine running .25mg adex ed. Aromasin is also a valid anti e.

Letro is the king of all but usually too strong and uncalled for in most cycles. Do not make the typical newbie mistake of running nolv throughout and entire cycle. It is not an AI and will hinder gains.

A really informed vet told me by PM that Armosin was more akin to Proviron than to Letro and Arimidex. I always thought it was an AI like those two. Any info on that?

[quote]SwD wrote:
A really informed vet told me by PM that Armosin was more akin to Proviron than to Letro and Arimidex. I always thought it was an AI like those two. Any info on that?

[/quote]

Although proviron does have some anti estrogen properties I would not use it as a stand alone for estrogen control. I would include it in a cycle for its effects on SHBG. I think that aromasin is much stronger than proviron as far as AIs are concerned. However I would appreciate any evidence for or against this as I have been wrong before.

2thepain, as usual, answers your question well. I would add that you must understand the difference between an Aromatase Inhibitor (which inhibits the conversion of testosterone to estrogen) and a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM, which blocks estrogen at specific receptor sites, for example breast tissue, but does not prevent the buildup of estrogen).

Controlling estrogen during a cycle is best, so you want to use an AI then. After your cycle is all done, there is little to no exogenous test left in the body, so conversion to E is not your problem. At that point, what you have to worry about is estrogen rebound. Your body has had its estrogen suppressed for a long period of time and tends to overcompensate and produce too much estrogen all at once. At this point you want to employ a SERM such as nolvadex or clomid.

Both an AI and a SERM will prevent gyno, but they should be used at the proper points in your cycle. A SERM can be used on cycle, but its effectiveness will be reduced post cycle if you end up needing it, so it is not suggested.

SwD, I believe aromasin would be a FAR better choice than proviron as an anti-e. And I think the mechanism is the same for aromasin as arimidex, though I’m not certain. I am certain that arimidex is the better choice on cycle. I made the mistake of relying on Proviron alone for anti-e purposes on cycle and almost ended up needed to buy a training bra.

You guys really hit the nail on the head, Thanks! :slight_smile:

Cortes, that’s what I thought as well so I was totally surprised. I mean the guy knows his stuff so it certainly drew my attention!

What I previously considered fact was that Aromasin is as good as Arimidex as an AI but without the blood lipids side effects.

I prefer Aromasin among the 3 classic AI’s. Its the only one one you can effectively use both on cycle and during PCT should you chose. If you have cholesterol issues like me aromasin is much easier on you than a-dex. Using an AI is largely dosage dependent. I personally would not insist on one for say 500mg of Test a week. Now mileage will vary. Some guys could get gyno at 500mg a week but some guys would not get it from 2G a week. As a rule the closer you get to 1G a week the more I think you need an AI.

E interferes with the action of T. E can occupy and block T receptors.

E2 in the lower 20’s pg/ml seems to be optimal. When on gear, E levels can increase to and beyond levels that create serious libido and mental problems, bloat, gyno “estrogen poisoning”.

It is crazy to put money, effort and food into a cycle and have E2 limiting the results.

Increased E lead to increased SHBG. SHBG reduces the FT:TT ratio. So this is like taking less T.

Liquid Arimidex/anastrozole is cheap. It should be used all through a cycle, reduced in PCT then reduced again post PCT for an indeterminate amount of time.

[quote]SwD wrote:
Cortes, that’s what I thought as well so I was totally surprised. I mean the guy knows his stuff so it certainly drew my attention!

What I previously considered fact was that Aromasin is as good as Arimidex as an AI but without the blood lipids side effects. [/quote]

This is correct. Aromasin “in clinical trials” has proven to maintain the patient’s original lipid profile. Other AI’s are not so kind.

This is one of the major problems with taking an anti-aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex. However the drawback is that Aromasin is considerably expensive at the dosage needed. Arimidex is rather cheap and produced UG.

[quote]sawadeekrob wrote:
SwD wrote:
Cortes, that’s what I thought as well so I was totally surprised. I mean the guy knows his stuff so it certainly drew my attention!

What I previously considered fact was that Aromasin is as good as Arimidex as an AI but without the blood lipids side effects.

This is correct. Aromasin “in clinical trials” has proven to maintain the patient’s original lipid profile. Other AI’s are not so kind.

This is one of the major problems with taking an anti-aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex. However the drawback is that Aromasin is considerably expensive at the dosage needed. Arimidex is rather cheap and produced UG.

[/quote]

Are you sure that adex have negative effects on lipids? Any AI that is dosed so that E is very low will have negative effects, but that is not a direct effect of the AI, only the effect of improper dosing. When E is that low an libido crashes, one knows that E2 is probably too low. Libido is a good guide for dosing adex.

Yes Arimidex has a bad rep for blood lipids, but then again only blood tests can tell the story.

As for Aromasin vs Arimidex efficiency as an AI, what the vet PMed me was:

"As for AI you can’t really compare adex and aromasin like you can adex and femara, as aromasin is more like proviron.

Basically it is not an aromatase inhibitor from what I recall, and it’s action are fairly week by comparison to arimidex.

The benifits though are that it doesn’t cause up regulation of the ER which is a good thing, but personally you can get simmilar results by using masteron or proviron as you can with aromasin when it comes to it’s use as an anti-E."

Thoughts?

It is inaccurate to draw and analogy between proviron and aromasin. Its true that letro and a-dex are more similar in terms of how and why they bind as compared with aromasin. Proviron still is a steroid not matter how much press it gets for its benefits against estrogen.

Well from my search on the web, it seems overall that adex is recommanded while on cycle, while aromasin is best for PCT.