Another School Shooting in Indiana

So, it would not be wrong to run the gas chambers for the regime? Disobeying would get one arrested.

I believe nazism was wrong and it was undoubtedly based on lies. So of course I would find the existence of death camps abhorrent. But that is different than asking about rights. That’s a question of morality.

Wrong from whose perspective? From mine it would be immoral.

That is not an argument–it’s simply a recapitulation of the 2A.

But the one running the chambers is following the law and doesn’t want to get arrested for disobedience (survival instinct). And since you don’t believe morality exists beyond personal preference (like favorite color), and his is different than yours, then he in reality (to you) is doing no wrong?

Well, someone might disagree that it states what I claim. But, I agree, I am merely stating what it says.

You have the right to self defense. Not the right to succeed.

I didn’t say we have no right. Just not a natural right. It’s granted to us by society (govt).

Well yea. By an entity who has decided it’s right to defend itself conflicts with your life.

You don’t believe African slaves had a right to their lives, though society felt otherwise?

You’re bringing up a new issue: coercion.

I didn’t say morality doesn’t exist outside of personal preference. That’s you engaging in a lowly form of discourse.

The answer is no as I would stop or want someone to stop the killing. In effect, I would try and impose my morality.

My answer would be that I believe they should have had their right to be free legally recognized by all parties involved in the slavery trade.

So it exists outside of personal and societal preferences.

‘Stating what it says’ doesn’t advance the ball much with respect to explicating your position.

Undrestood, thank you.

You use the word so too much. You are also changing the argument. You now include society in addition to personal.

Anyway, the sense of morality comes from within, the actual codes from society and they are influenced by necessity. Sending Japanese Americans to interment camps was immoral by our standards, even at the time, but necessity or the perception of necessity made it morally acceptable. Like torture is immoral unless… killing is immoral unless…

And this is why the idea of natural rights and morals is flawed. For every natural right or moral there are exceptions which are morally valid.

Absolutely I do. As do nearly all Americans. That’s why slavery became illegal. Because the people the thought it was good died off and were replaced with enough people who disagreed.

No, society has been part of the discussion. Through laws, or through simple acceptance (say, the enslavement of Africans).

But let’s be explicit You do agree that morality/rights exists outside of personal preference. Then what if one’s society doesn’t object to you handing over the before mentioned folks to the camps? Doesn’t object to the slavery? Doesn’t object to someone manning the gas over 'those people?". But if you believe that society would be wrong, then you can’t believe it comes from society either. So, is the gas chamber attendant/slaver right so long as society agrees?

Absolutely, you do? How can you believe those African slaves had a right to their lives then, if rights survive only at the whim of society? Many of them lived and died before society decided any such thing. You claim to retroactively and posthumously impart rights upon them by what authority? They didn’t live in your society. You must believe they had no rights to be trespassed against, thus no evil was done them. How can the slavers have done evil things, if their society didn’t think it was an evil thing? If the value of slaves’ lives resided in the society they lived in, you then are mistaken. You can not say they had rights, if society is the source of rights. And it becomes completely arbitrary. It needn’t be evil and immoral, so long as we don’t make it illegal. I would say thank God for the abolitionists who led society, preceding society. Even breaking its laws to help runaway slaves reach freedom.

“No, Mr. Abolitionist so long as society agrees not to grant the African a right to freedom, no wrong is being done to him.”

“But…”

“Nope, society disagrees with you.”

“True… Yeah, wow. How did I forget that? Anyways, never-mind. How much are slaves going for again? I might know where a few are…”

Sorry, but I will disagree. Those folks had rights, and, society was morally obligated to honor them long before it decided to do so. Their right to life, freedom, etc., pre-dated society’s feet-dragging time frame. And is an argument as to why society needn’t have emancipated slaves (because it really wasn’t an evil, if fact). Nothing was in need of change, because nothing was morally wrong.

But you recognize that this is only a preference and you are not a source of morality… Like having a favorite color, yet recognizing there isn’t a right or wrong favorite color. So, if society was disagreeing with you at that time, you concede that no evil is being done to the African as he has no rights (because society has seen to bestow them upon him yet if ever before his death)…

Then you believe it exists outside of personal preference? Ok. With society then? Then shouldn’t you conform to society instead of trying to stop, or wanting someone to stop the killing? If not, then it exists outside of society too?

And what do you mean you would try to impose your morality on this brutal regime and its perfectly happy to go along people? Careful, there’s folks around here saying such efforts are futile.

No, I don’t agree. People, with some exceptions have an innate sense of morality. The actual rules are codified by people. You won’t find some natural law about gun ownership. Slavery was considered natural at one point and in some places still is. The Bible does not outlaw slavery.

So the person who works in a death camp is doing wrong if he is coerced into doing it. If he isn’t coerced then he is also immoral. But that is based on my morality however, and most people share it with me. Given how German troops and Himmler himself reacted to the murdering of Jews, many of them also felt it was wrong.

With that said, a German soldier would be right according to the morality of the people he takes orders from. And if Germany won wouldn’t have had to worry about what people like me think.